[SP Wild]

MP3 sounds great with my LCD2s.  MP3 on LCD2 sound vastly superior to hi-rez on HD650/K701 in my setup.
 
A good digital source can play an MP3 as good as a poor digital source playing lossless...give and take.  A good powerful amp will enable me to house an entire concert in my minds eye, with no strain or harshness.
 
My music library has tripled in size since I got the LCD2s...and a large part of that is because I no longer feel guilty about downloading MP3 albums, they have never sounded any better.
 
Yup, uhuh, they still amaze me after all this time...It'll be long while before I can imagine owning speakers that will actually surpass these sonic ear injections in digging out the recorded definition.

 

[leesure]

Quote:

Hi Vkamicht. Since you also use an EQ, I'm wondering how you feel about cables. Do you feel a cable upgrade can bring anything to the table beyond what can be achieved by tweaking the EQ curve?
 
I've been a long time sceptic about any upgrades to my Mif-Fi system, not just cables. Recent successes with the LCD-2 and the Behringer leave me wanting to investigate again.

I don't EQ, but have rolled in cables.  The thing I noticed right away with the Norse 4-conductor cables was not a change in frequency response, but rather in the soundstage.  The image moved more out-of-head and the space around the instruments was better.  I listened to those exclusivly for about 2 weeks until it was time to pack up for the NYC show on Friday night.  I had packed up the Norse's, but still wanted to listen a little more before shutting everything down so I put the stocks back on (the 'New' post January stuck cables) and the instant impression was that the sound was DEAD.  the speed, transarency and life was taken a notch down.  It was a you-don't-know-what-you've-got-til-it's-gone moment.
 
I'll be sticking with the Norse cables.

 

[Vkamicht]

Quote:

You can't EQ out poor quality electronics.

I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying that someone with a very affordable, decent amp and some good equalization (i.e. NOT the one built into foobar, winamp, what have you) will hear a more "true" sound than the guy who just decided to spend 2k on electronics that are still, essentially, trying to do the same thing as the cheaper ones. That is, all amps and DACs should have the same goal... a flat output, no distortion, no crosstalk (I think...) If it doesn't, it's either on purpose (tubes) or broken. This is where I start to hate audiophilia. My source is the $100 E-Mu 0404 PCI card and I have no plans to get another DAC. The card has been measured to have a razor flat output and doesn't "roll off" until near 20khz which I can't hear anyway (I've tried) even then it's mild. (Food for thought: I tried the CIAudio VDA-2 a highly regarded DAC... and I thought the 0404 sounded brighter!! Yet it's measurably flat... so what does that mean for the VDA-2? I wish I could compare the two again today) Yet I've seen comparisons of that card vs. another one like the 1212 and people say things like "the 0404 sounds plasticky". That description is something I apply when there's a frequency peak somewhere in the midrange. Both are professional cards and both should have the same frequency response. So what the hell are people hearing?
 
"Source first" is a good mantra, but it doesn't mean your source should cost most than your headphones. Silly.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

I don't EQ, but have rolled in cables.  The thing I noticed right away with the Norse 4-conductor cables was not a change in frequency response, but rather in the soundstage.  The image moved more out-of-head and the space around the instruments was better.  I listened to those exclusivly for about 2 weeks until it was time to pack up for the NYC show on Friday night.  I had packed up the Norse's, but still wanted to listen a little more before shutting everything down so I put the stocks back on (the 'New' post January stuck cables) and the instant impression was that the sound was DEAD.  the speed, transarency and life was taken a notch down.  It was a you-don't-know-what-you've-got-til-it's-gone moment.
 
I'll be sticking with the Norse cables.

I think you'll find that often, our perception of imaging is greatly influenced by subtle FR queues.  In real life our brains determine sound location by processing very subtle location differences in not only timing of signal arrival at each ear, but also by very subtle changes in Frequency Response caused by the acoustic shadow cast on what we hear by our pinnae.  Our brains make sense of that FR shift and use it to locate sound origin in the vertical and frontal plane.
 
 

 

[Eisenbart]

I would agree that good EQ will give you the sound signature you want, but it can't bring out the details like a more expensive amp or DAC can. Yesterday I got to listen to the LCD-2 through a Red Wine Isabellina and my own Schiit Asgard w/ a Music Streamer II. There is no way EQ could have matched the amount of detail and presence the Isabellina had. Same story when I tried it with my HD600. I'm not sure if that is what you are arguing but I thought I throw in my two cents.
 
And for anyone that is wondering, the Isabellina sounds great. The one I had the chance to hear only had a handful of hours on it, but it blew me away, with the LCD-2 and HD600. Super quiet and natural sounding.
 
Quote:

I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying that someone with a very affordable, decent amp and some good equalization (i.e. NOT the one built into foobar, winamp, what have you) will hear a more "true" sound than the guy who just decided to spend 2k on electronics that are still, essentially, trying to do the same thing as the cheaper ones. That is, all amps and DACs should have the same goal... a flat output, no distortion, no crosstalk (I think...) If it doesn't, it's either on purpose (tubes) or broken. This is where I start to hate audiophilia. My source is the $100 E-Mu 0404 PCI card and I have no plans to get another DAC. The card has been measured to have a razor flat output and doesn't "roll off" until near 20khz which I can't hear anyway (I've tried) even then it's mild. (Food for thought: I tried the CIAudio VDA-2 a highly regarded DAC... and I thought the 0404 sounded brighter!! Yet it's measurably flat... so what does that mean for the VDA-2? I wish I could compare the two again today) Yet I've seen comparisons of that card vs. another one like the 1212 and people say things like "the 0404 sounds plasticky". That description is something I apply when there's a frequency peak somewhere in the midrange. Both are professional cards and both should have the same frequency response. So what the hell are people hearing?
 
"Source first" is a good mantra, but it doesn't mean your source should cost most than your headphones. Silly.

 

 

[jcx]

Red Wine Isabellina - "specs " are an interesting read - carefully avoids talking about anti-imaging/reconstruction filter design - absolutely critical in non-oversampling - getting 96 dB roll-off between 20 KHz and 22.05 KHz is quite a feat in descrete tansistor analog - you would think an "audiophile" solution would merit some mention in the marketing
 
it would be hard to match inband IMD products from low/no filtering of the DAC image frequencies mixing in the output tube

 

[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying that someone with a very affordable, decent amp and some good equalization (i.e. NOT the one built into foobar, winamp, what have you) will hear a more "true" sound than the guy who just decided to spend 2k on electronics that are still, essentially, trying to do the same thing as the cheaper ones. That is, all amps and DACs should have the same goal... a flat output, no distortion, no crosstalk (I think...) If it doesn't, it's either on purpose (tubes) or broken. This is where I start to hate audiophilia. My source is the $100 E-Mu 0404 PCI card and I have no plans to get another DAC. The card has been measured to have a razor flat output and doesn't "roll off" until near 20khz which I can't hear anyway (I've tried) even then it's mild. (Food for thought: I tried the CIAudio VDA-2 a highly regarded DAC... and I thought the 0404 sounded brighter!! Yet it's measurably flat... so what does that mean for the VDA-2? I wish I could compare the two again today) Yet I've seen comparisons of that card vs. another one like the 1212 and people say things like "the 0404 sounds plasticky". That description is something I apply when there's a frequency peak somewhere in the midrange. Both are professional cards and both should have the same frequency response. So what the hell are people hearing?
 
"Source first" is a good mantra, but it doesn't mean your source should cost most than your headphones. Silly.

I also don't agree with the source first idea because I think that most sources are at least acceptable and the headphone makes a much bigger difference.  I'd take a headphone I like out of an ipod over a headphone I dislike out of a 2k DAC any day. 
 
But I can't help feeling like when people come at audio with such a bias and agenda, that you are not even letting yourself hear or give things a chance.  You have already decided what is what.  Which is fine, if that's what you want to do.  But it's hardly an accurate assessment of the gear.  It's just a statement of your bias and preconceived notions of what is going to be good.  The 0404 "measures flat" according to you and someone else, so any statement about it not sounding that way is false, any statement about it sounding off is false.  Unfortunately, it's not that black and white, and the way something sounds is more important than someone saying that something has a good measurement of some kind. 

 

[Vkamicht]

Quote:

But I can't help feeling like when people come at audio with such a bias and agenda, that you are not even letting yourself hear or give things a chance.  You have already decided what is what.  Which is fine, if that's what you want to do.  But it's hardly an accurate assessment of the gear.  It's just a statement of your bias and preconceived notions of what is going to be good.  The 0404 "measures flat" according to you and someone else, so any statement about it not sounding that way is false, any statement about it sounding off is false.  Unfortunately, it's not that black and white, and the way something sounds is more important than someone saying that something has a good measurement of some kind. 

How do I have bias and preconceived notions of that context? I gave sources a chance... I bought the VDA-2 and external power supply expecting a big difference. (a bias in the opposite way you are suggesting) For what I paid, I should have heard one... but I didn't. Like I said in my previous post, I thought I heard one being slightly brighter than the other one. Yet I had to change the volume level on my amp every time I changed source, so... it wasn't an accurate comparison at all.


Quote:

I would agree that good EQ will give you the sound signature you want, but it can't bring out the details like a more expensive amp or DAC can. Yesterday I got to listen to the LCD-2 through a Red Wine Isabellina and my own Schiit Asgard w/ a Music Streamer II. There is no way EQ could have matched the amount of detail and presence the Isabellina had. Same story when I tried it with my HD600. I'm not sure if that is what you are arguing but I thought I throw in my two cents.
 

What is 'detail' though? And 'presence' for that matter... People throw around a lot of flowery words around here. To some people detail is the presence of high frequencies. To me, real detail, is the absence of what I call "masking" frequencies. As I found frequency spikes in my DT-880's response and equalized them out, I found them to be MUCH more detailed. When the emphasis of particular frequency ranges is gone, you more easily hear what was already there, because you are no longer picking up this massive spike of 6khz or whatever was completely coloring the sound. That thread about EQ that used to be stickied (might still be) explained this really well.
 
Now that I know how much the Isabellina costs, I understand why you can't fathom the idea of getting high class sound from a cheap PCI sound card.

 

[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

How do I have bias and preconceived notions of that context? I gave sources a chance... I bought the VDA-2 and external power supply expecting a big difference. (a bias in the opposite way you are suggesting) For what I paid, I should have heard one... but I didn't. Like I said in my previous post, I thought I heard one being slightly brighter than the other one. Yet I had to change the volume level on my amp every time I changed source, so... it wasn't an accurate comparison at all.



What is 'detail' though? And 'presence' for that matter... People throw around a lot of flowery words around here. To some people detail is the presence of high frequencies. To me, real detail, is the absence of what I call "masking" frequencies. As I found frequency spikes in my DT-880's response and equalized them out, I found them to be MUCH more detailed. When the emphasis of particular frequency ranges is gone, you more easily hear what was already there, because you are no longer picking up this massive spike of 6khz or whatever was completely coloring the sound. That thread about EQ that used to be stickied (might still be) explained this really well.

Ok that's cool maybe I was wrong then.  But I do feel like I see that on head-fi fairly often, when people are looking at gear more based on specs then sound.  I totally agree with you about peaks in FR masking detail and I think it's really distracting. 
 

 

[Vkamicht]

Quote:

Ok that's cool maybe I was wrong then.  But I do feel like I see that on head-fi fairly often, when people are looking at gear more based on specs then sound.  I totally agree with you about peaks in FR masking detail and I think it's really distracting. 
 

No harm done! Yes I am a skeptic which gets me a lot of flak around here, but believe me I've actually tried the things I rail against. I even tried cables... (even higher quality optical cable!)
 
Back on topic, I am very excited for my LCD-2. Yes I love EQ and what it can do for the sound. But it's still modifying the signal, and I do think being purist isn't a bad thing. The less equalization I have to use the better. Hoping for an outstanding, killer sound that'll last me a long time.
 
One more thing: I'm sure it was brought up before, but it's hard to find in a search. I tried the AKG K701 before but found it way too big for my head. I like the size of the DT-880 but the pads or something about it really irritates my ears, even after having it for almost a year. It's great for the first 30-60 mins or so, but after that I have to take a break. I'm really hoping the LCD-2 isn't too big. In pictures it looks to be about the same size as the K701, but the pads on that phone were very stiff and didn't flex at all. I'm hoping the LCD-2 will be a better fit than that.
 

 

[leesure]

I gave sources a chance... I bought the VDA-2 and external power supply expecting a big difference.
 
But that's the problem...you still came in with a bias, this time for an unrealistic expectation.  BIG differences don't happen beyond the basic early upgrades...then the law of dimishing returns sets in and you are paying more and more for SUBTLE changes.  It's up to you to decide what those subtle changes are worth to you, but expecting BIG changes is unrealistic in electronics/cables. 

 

[leesure]

Quote:

Red Wine Isabellina - "specs " are an interesting read - carefully avoids talking about anti-imaging/reconstruction filter design - absolutely critical in non-oversampling - getting 96 dB roll-off between 20 KHz and 22.05 KHz is quite a feat in descrete tansistor analog - you would think an "audiophile" solution would merit some mention in the marketing
 
it would be hard to match inband IMD products from low/no filtering of the DAC image frequencies mixing in the output tube

I guess I'm nuts, but I don't base my buying decisions on audio gear on how the result was achieved, but rather simply on the result.  The Red Wide Isabellina I heard at the NYC show on Saturday was nothing shot of a jaw-dropping revelation with my LCD-2's.  It was spectacular.

 

[Vkamicht]

Quote:

I gave sources a chance... I bought the VDA-2 and external power supply expecting a big difference.
 
But that's the problem...you still came in with a bias, this time for an unrealistic expectation.  BIG differences don't happen beyond the basic early upgrades...then the law of dimishing returns sets in and you are paying more and more for SUBTLE changes.  It's up to you to decide what those subtle changes are worth to you, but expecting BIG changes is unrealistic in electronics/cables. 

 
I really couldn't do anything about that. Not knowing any better, and being a newbie to this forum, my expectations were based on the average posts you can find here. Which, being polite about it, are VERY exaggerated...

 

[leesure]

Quote:

 
I really couldn't do anything about that. Not knowing any better, and being a newbie to this forum, my expectations were based on the average posts you can find here. Which, being polite about it, are VERY exaggerated...

That's because people who have experienced it know that tiny improvements are big and small changes are HUGE.  BIG changes rarely, if ever, happen beyond the earliest upgrades...ie iPod-only to 1st amp or copmputer stock sound card to 1st DAC.

 

[elnero]

Quote:

I guess I'm nuts, but I don't base my buying decisions on audio gear on how the result was achieved, but rather simply on the result.  The Red Wide Isabellina I heard at the NYC show on Saturday was nothing shot of a jaw-dropping revelation with my LCD-2's.  It was spectacular.

I'm not sure if I missed it elsewhere, did you try the Lyr at the meet?