Are headphones really high end?
Sep 11, 2007 at 7:30 PM Post #61 of 88
Out of the same source, an Esoteric X-03SE, the HE60/006tmk1 has a more refined sound than the Diva Utopia Be driven by much more expensive amplification. My parents' home listening environment is less than satisfactory for the stereo rig, but I have also heard the speakers at the dealers' uber-anal listening room and trust me, headphones are definitely high end. Admittedly, the speakers did sound miles better after we switched to over $100k worth of front end, power conditioning, master clock and anaconda-sized cables
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Sep 11, 2007 at 8:58 PM Post #62 of 88
Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

How many people would buy a 5" tv screen and say wow look at my new set and how good the resolution and color is... when they have a 50" set that can do the same thing.

Headphones are for intimacy, convenience, budget, lack of listening space, able to move around and not sit it the sweet spot.

But for creating lifelike and full sized music with air, ambiance, and space around it with true bass vibration, speakers win without a fight.



if you put that 5" TV screen 2" in front of your eyes then you have a nicely immerive experience. if the resolution is high enough then would be no difference between that and watching a 100" TV 10feet away except for the scale... that and about $20,000

now what if the 5" screen was plasma or the infamous SED and the 100" screen was a crappy LCD, there will be a picture quality difference.

regarding other posters comments, ummm yeah speakers throw a bigger soundstage than headphones, big surprise, how about the quality of sound?
 
Sep 11, 2007 at 9:08 PM Post #63 of 88
Quote:

Just talking about SQ, not the sound stage etc


Well I WAS talking about soundstage. This is the area where headphones fall dramatically short of even a modestly-priced speaker rig (unless you're talking about binaural recordings, which are a whole different ball of ...wax). In terms of FR down to 20Hz, detail, etc. sure headphones are hard to beat. But in terms of soundstage and verisimilitude they fall far short of a decent speaker rig.

I mean, come on.
 
Sep 11, 2007 at 9:14 PM Post #64 of 88
Quote:

Originally Posted by euclid /img/forum/go_quote.gif
if you put that 5" TV screen 2" in front of your eyes then you have a nicely immerive experience. if the resolution is high enough then would be no difference between that and watching a 100" TV 10feet away except for the scale... that and about $20,000


That would be a good point if when listening to headphones you get a 6' violinist about 6 feet in front of you, but you don't. You get a little army man sized violinist floating in the middle of your head if your lucky.
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and that's with the headphone jammed up to the ear.
 
Sep 11, 2007 at 9:26 PM Post #65 of 88
Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That would be a good point if when listening to headphones you get a 6' violinist about 6 feet in front of you, but you don't. You get a little army man sized violinist floating in the middle of your head if your lucky.
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and that's with the headphone jammed up to the ear.



When I look at someone about 6 foot away they only seem about half the length of my forearm (which I hold up for comparison).
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So about 20 cm then.. Oh, wait, if I hold up my finger in front of my face, they are no longer than that!
 
Sep 11, 2007 at 9:42 PM Post #66 of 88
Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That would be a good point if when listening to headphones you get a 6' violinist about 6 feet in front of you, but you don't. You get a little army man sized violinist floating in the middle of your head if your lucky.
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and that's with the headphone jammed up to the ear.



youre still just talking about scale, the topic is if headphones can sound high end, they can sound better than high end they just have a unique presentation. where speakers image and soundstage in real life, headphones do it within a smaller and nearer space. which has nothing to do with the sound reproduction or accuracy.

its not easy to get a vocalist or violinist to manifest right in front of you through a set of speakers, it takes a dedicated lsitening room and alot of nice gear to be transparant and tonally natural. good headphones can accomplish that effect with ease.
 
Sep 11, 2007 at 9:54 PM Post #67 of 88
Last few post about size/scale... This speaks to my point about dbs earilier... For speakers to play large, the volume setting will often differ at which point the speaker drivers are well intergrated in output of each instruments strength with the bass sounding "right" and not over accented. UNTIL an upper level of price and matched amplification is afforded. Yes, I do want to hear concert levels or only slightly less, and imo, this is what costs big bucks. Although, as I say, my Cornwalls do just this for me however still with imperfection compared to the tone quality's of my hP set up. Of course, both are completely different types of presentations as has been said, obviously. Yet as different as they both are They're both excellent, within their limitations and excel at their strengths.

Again, choice of type of music played also has a large roll to play, yes even especially so with speaker choices/systems needing matching of components to achieve proper presentation (Big/loud), with proper scale of individual instruments, with subtle details preserved and their tone . Ergo, my statement of a much larger cost difference I mentioned eariler. However, if someone wants to say a $2000 speaker system beats anything they have heard from phones, I have to respect that opinion, but mostly from experience I have to disagree, but of course their presentations both are very different, and I do love both, within what I hear as their limitations, both being flawed. UNTIL a much greater amount (5X), is spent on a speaker system, as I said.
 
Sep 11, 2007 at 10:07 PM Post #68 of 88
A speaker system and headphone setups have different goals. I use my headphones for listening to most music, because I have superbly detailed sound from them. I prefer speakers for watching movies, because not only do I frequently want to not be the only one watching and listening to a movie, but I also love the full-body vibrations generated by a subwoofer, something that your headphones (unless you're doing some very, very strange things) can't do. I would say that, in the end, speakers will give better quality sound, partially because most music is now mixed to sound good over speakers, but also because music is not recorded being funneled directly into your ears. That is not to say that headphones can not give you very high quality sound, but I think that if you're willing to pull out all the stops and buy every little piece of equipment, including an acoustically well designed room, speakers will give you a better experience.
 
Sep 11, 2007 at 10:28 PM Post #69 of 88
Quote:

Originally Posted by euclid /img/forum/go_quote.gif
youre still just talking about scale, the topic is if headphones can sound high end, they can sound better than high end they just have a unique presentation. where speakers image and soundstage in real life, headphones do it within a smaller and nearer space. which has nothing to do with the sound reproduction or accuracy.


Agreed - headphones are just as high end and resolved as speakers for pure SQ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by euclid /img/forum/go_quote.gif
its not easy to get a vocalist or violinist to manifest right in front of you through a set of speakers, it takes a dedicated lsitening room and alot of nice gear to be transparant and tonally natural. good headphones can accomplish that effect with ease.


Actually, headphones don't manifest anything in front of you. But agreed rooms are terribly difficult to get right. I practically had to become an audio scientist just to get my room right. But when it is, speakers King...

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfloding
When I look at someone about 6 foot away they only seem about half the length of my forearm (which I hold up for comparison). So about 20 cm then.. Oh, wait, if I hold up my finger in front of my face, they are no longer than that!


ha ha touché
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Sep 11, 2007 at 10:34 PM Post #70 of 88
I don't think 'headstage' is really a problem. I mean people talk about it like it's a bad thing.

It's just part & parcel to the headphone experience.

If you don't like it, fine. But it's not so much a shortcoming as a tradeoff. Short of a neural interface we're not going to have perfect way-out-of-head imaging and an intimate, isolated experience at the same time. Nothing is ever going to sound much further away from your head than the drivers are physically set away from your head.
 
Sep 11, 2007 at 10:52 PM Post #71 of 88
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I don't think 'headstage' is really a problem. I mean people talk about it like it's a bad thing.

It's just part & parcel to the headphone experience.

If you don't like it, fine. But it's not so much a shortcoming as a tradeoff. Short of a neural interface we're not going to have perfect way-out-of-head imaging and an intimate, isolated experience at the same time. Nothing is ever going to sound much further away from your head than the drivers are physically set away from your head.



Well said, and goes back to the idea of personal preference: you have to identify and choose the elements of sound you enjoy the most, and then decide whether speakers or headphones would better satisfy that preference. I don't think anyone is naive enough to claim that general headphones will provide a larger soundstage than general speakers; just as few people are naive enough to claim that room acoustics are less of a factor with speakers than with their counterparts.

As long as we understand the limitations and benefits of each system of "sound delivery," then there really isn't a direct way to prove that one is of higher quality than another. There's clearly no right answer.
 
Sep 11, 2007 at 10:57 PM Post #74 of 88
Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif


Actually, headphones don't manifest anything in front of you. But agreed rooms are terribly difficult to get right. I practically had to become an audio scientist just to get my room right. But when it is, speakers King...




yeah im still fussing with minor quiblles in mine for the better part of a year, i am considering moving the subs to a different room to use the walls as sort of a natural crossover and aid in masking the location of the bass. with my powered subs in the listening room the noisefloor is raised slightly and i feel the bass is not totally omnidirectional. when i go to the next room with only the subs playing its just deep bass as it should be, i dont think it will encroach on the midrange or imaging of the Druids as much.

its really down to slight nitpicking at this point but im overall happy with the speakers presentation.
 
Sep 11, 2007 at 11:00 PM Post #75 of 88
I don't usually see the headphone experience as a problem. However, after reading some replies here I started to think critically about the "headstage" sound -something I haven't done since I started using Walkmans in the 80's.

I downloaded Winamp and HeadPlug MII (and some other plugins that weren't as configurable).

http://www.stereo-balance.net/index....iki&w=headplug

I don't really understand all the settings yet, but some tweaking gave some interesting results. This may be an area for the future. (I suppose the big sound card companies must know a lot about this, with virtual "3D" sound and what have you..)

Anyway, the "is it or is it not high-end" question is related to the recorded and mixed material -almost all of it is produced for speaker playback.
 

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