[jinx20001]

i beg to differ i really do,how can budget speakers especially be well balanced and have great definition,alot of budget speakers either lack highs and mids and usually never have perfect bass,bass on full size systems is usually overblown and boomy and unless very powerful,usually hardly felt.

bass is meant to be felt and if it cant be felt its usually boom that is heard and thats wrong,this is what er4p and upwards manage to get right,clean non boomy bass but its still there.

its very hard indeed to get balance right on full size systems because it very much depends where you are in the room,how the speakers are placed,what frequencies are produced and what power,you are essentially saying budget speakers are as good as pro studio speakers,and your saying they are all as balanced as each other.

headphones are much easier to balance up and define because the manufacturers only have your ear canal and the space and air inside to tune up and get right,big speaker manufacturers have to put a heck of a lot more effort into the design of the cone and so on to get it right and well defined

 

[PiccoloNamek]

Quote:

sounds better

Really now, they "sound" the same. One is just smaller. That's how I see it anyway.

 

[ericj]

From a mechanical perspective, the driver surfaces in premium headphones are MUCH better controlled than probably any speaker, which should equate to better accuracy.

 

[sugarinthegourd]

I could put a system together for under $1k that would blow any headphone system away in terms of soundstage, instrument staging, and overall experience.

You can get tremendous SQ from headphones for not much money but the experience will never be that of a good source through a good amp and good speakers, imho.

 

[jinx20001]

well why dont you state the 1k system you would put together,we can all say we know the perfect equipment but rarely can name it all

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx20001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif i beg to differ i really do,how can budget speakers especially be well balanced and have great definition,alot of budget speakers either lack highs and mids and usually never have perfect bass,bass on full size systems is usually overblown and boomy and unless very powerful,usually hardly felt. bass is meant to be felt and if it cant be felt its usually boom that is heard and thats wrong,this is what er4p and upwards manage to get right,clean non boomy bass but its still there. its very hard indeed to get balance right on full size systems because it very much depends where you are in the room,how the speakers are placed,what frequencies are produced and what power,you are essentially saying budget speakers are as good as pro studio speakers,and your saying they are all as balanced as each other. headphones are much easier to balance up and define because the manufacturers only have your ear canal and the space and air inside to tune up and get right,big speaker manufacturers have to put a heck of a lot more effort into the design of the cone and so on to get it right and well defined

I don't understand - you say most speakers lack mids or high. Which ones would those be?

Room issues are room issues - speakers are meant to be set up properly, if the bass is boomy because of the room, then they aren't set up properly. Headphones are more convenient in that they don't need setup.

Headphones are easy to balance???? What headphone matches the flatness of any speaker? The cheapest speakers don't have the spikes and dips all over the place like even the top headphones have.

Most headphones struggle to do bass right and when they do, they still don't give you the sensation of bass. Budget speakers don't do bass as well as the pricier stuff, however.

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Headphones are easy to balance???? What headphone matches the flatness of any speaker? The cheapest speakers don't have the spikes and dips all over the place like even the top headphones have.

It's hard to accurately measure the response of headphones because the shape of the human ear and the acoustics of skin make a big difference vs. a hard, flat surface.

There are planar (read: electrostatic or isodynamic) headphones with response that is ruler flat depending on how you measure it. Some of them can be had for less than $200.

Oh, and single-driver headphones don't have the distortion caused by crossover networks.

 

[PiccoloNamek]

Quote:

The cheapest speakers don't have the spikes and dips all over the place like even the top headphones have.

The real question is: Do speakers need to have spikes and dips in their responses? The answer is of course no.

Also, I can think of two headphones right now that have almost perfectly flat responses: The K1000 and the ER2 insert earphone.

 

[spritzer]

I need to clear one thing first. Headphones aren't supposed to measure flat due to the proximity of the drivers. There are two versions of how they are supposed to measure but it is a very bumpy graph and you should really pick up the latest issue of Hi-Fi News where they talk about this misconception and other headphone related issues such as amplifier output impedance.

No speaker can match the clarity and purity of a real high end headphone based system since there as so many fewer things to mess up the signal then even the very best speakers. Headphones are better built then any speaker could dream about and use much better material. There is no crappy mdf to be found in any headphone but PET isn't really a better material though. The amplification factor is much lower so less distortion and non linear artifacts are introduced to the original signal.

 

[jinx20001]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's hard to accurately measure the response of headphones because the shape of the human ear and the acoustics of skin make a big difference vs. a hard, flat surface. There are planar (read: electrostatic or isodynamic) headphones with response that is ruler flat depending on how you measure it. Some of them can be had for less than $200. Oh, and single-driver headphones don't have the distortion caused by crossover networks.

i think multi driver earphones do a better job at portrayin none distorted bass just because of it being seperated,so pro's and cons are on both sides

and to rob.how i meant to say it is the mids and highs are never as clean or sharp as you would expect,or indeed get from high end earphones/headphones and also headphones are difficult to measure accurately so those dips and spikes may not be down to the quality of the drivers

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's hard to accurately measure the response of headphones because the shape of the human ear and the acoustics of skin make a big difference vs. a hard, flat surface.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also, I can think of two headphones right now that have almost perfectly flat responses: The K1000 and the ER2 insert earphone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif I need to clear one thing first. Headphones aren't supposed to measure flat due to the proximity of the drivers.

I'm not sure what to say, but the K-1000, HP-2 and to some degree HD600s which resemble a ski slope have a relatively flat response, but the majority? no.

Of all the speakers that I've heard, I never hear spikey highs, shouty midranges. It's usually issues with the room that cause all of that. They aren't perfectly flat, but I haven't heard any RS-1 kind of spikey highs or HD650 bass excess. Headphones seem to struggle to get balance and extension because of the closeness to the ears IMO while IEMs actually seem to be able to nail it ER4s - UE10

Funny I'm arguing about how flat speakers are compared to headphones because that's not even the reason why I think speakers recreate music truer to the recording. And it's not even the OPs question which I answered as "yes" high end phones are still high end compared to speakers.

 

[jinx20001]

lol we agree one something then i also think iem's happen to be more balanced than headphones

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarinthegourd /img/forum/go_quote.gif I could put a system together for under $1k that would blow any headphone system away in terms of soundstage, instrument staging, and overall experience. You can get tremendous SQ from headphones for not much money but the experience will never be that of a good source through a good amp and good speakers, imho.

No. SQ wise a 1,000 headphone beats a 1,000 speaker set up IMO.. Just talking about SQ, not the sound stage etc.. a cheap 200.00 THIB can make you feel the bass, but the quality, tone, texture, definition all go to my headphones. I'm sure you would need a 500.00 plus sub to give you the same bass quality as my headphone set up. I heard 400.00 Definite floor speakers & they aren't even close to touching my 650's..

I still feel headphones offer the best bang for the buck in audio & is fool proof..

 

[spritzer]

There are different takes on how the slope should be but in general it rises to a peak at about 2kHz and then drops off in a ripple fashion.

The reason why most speakers appear flat to the ear is the room acting as a damper. The broad dispersion throws sound everywhere so it could be compared to the damping pads in old electrostatics since they functioned in a similar way. There is nothing between the ear and the transducer in a headphone so no damping can occur unless the phones are a true dipole and you use the backwave to cancel out some of the waves.

 

[DavidMahler]

state of the art Speakers are too dependant on the surroundings and the listener's position, to offer the same consistent quality of a good pair of headphones