Chord Hugo
Dec 4, 2016 at 7:09 AM Post #14,236 of 15,694
Started with hpa8 and th900. Converted th900 to full Lawton upgrade Hawaiian koa museum grade. Bought Hugo for 846 upgrade to dhc fusion 8 braid cable. Use Hugo for la900 portable as well. Bought TT with hd800S upgraded cable to dhc c4. A/b hd800S Hugo and preferred TT. After a year bought GSX mk2 upgraded cable to balanced prion 4 dhc.love the combo to the point I'm not buying utopia or LCD 4 yet. I think if you buy utopia hd800S may be redundant but I'll leave that to others to comment. Still smile when I listen to la900 on the hpa8, won't go into it but I still keep that pairing. Bought kaiser encore as a potential upgrade to 846, have ordered dhc silver type 4 litz 8 braid for it.
Bottom line TT is a heck of a desktop, Hugo heck of a portable, la900 still makes me smile, GSX added the fondant, and ya I'm a cable guy. That is all.

 

Thank you.
 
I can understand your different needs for different DACs, but If you had to make the choice of desktop listening only,which one is better a choice?
 
TT + GSX MK2?
 
 
Or the cheaper route of something like 2 Cute Dac + GSX?
 
Isn't the DAC in 2 Cute the same as Hugo?
 
Dec 4, 2016 at 7:15 AM Post #14,237 of 15,694
I don't know 2cute but TT was launched with updated circuit board, super capacitors, as well as other enhancements. I mean it's all good, but TT should have the edge. Don't know the Hugo versus 2 cute.

First if you start with TT you may not wish to amp it, but if GSX mk2 is a consideration or any balanced amp, you need balance out xlr. Hugo and 2 qute do not have that
 
Dec 4, 2016 at 7:33 AM Post #14,238 of 15,694
   
The TT (and the Hugo, Mojo, & DAVE) does not have an "amp section". It can drive pretty much any headphone out there not names the HE-6 or LCD-4. But with a top flight amplifier like the GS-X Mk2, headphones like the HD800S, LCD-4 and HE-1000s do improve with the added power (5 W vs. 0.5W into 32 ohms). Maybe a bit overkill, but hey, THIS IS HEAD-FI!. 
wink.gif
 

 
I am little lost here, what are you trying to say here? Everyone is saying that it is more than capable as an Amp.
 
Dec 4, 2016 at 8:24 AM Post #14,240 of 15,694
I am little lost here, what are you trying to say here? Everyone is saying that it is more than capable as an Amp.


Because there are many people who simply don't understand how Rob Watts, the designer of Chord DACs, implements his designs. He does not use a seperate amp section in his DACs, from the Mojo all the way up to the DAVE. The headphone out and the other outputs are basically driven from the DACs line-out stage. The only analogue section in his designs is the critical I/V (Current to Voltage) stage, that's it. He does this for the sake of transparency as more components reduce transparency. The whole design, from the use of FPGA for the DAC filter, to the Pulse Array DAC that he invented, to the ability to drive headphones from the line-out stage, is all very unconventional in his designs.

Simply read the posts from Rob Watts and you'll learn a lot about his designs as he has spoken in depth about his approach here on Head Fi.

This might help:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/702787/chord-hugo/1830#post_10459450


I have been seeing some comments describing Hugo as excellent DAC with a good headphone amp. Both comments, in my view, are wrong and way off the mark - and seeing these comments are starting to bug me, so I would like to get it off my chest. So forgive me if I am overstepping the mark - commenting on honest posts about a product I have designed, but I thought it might be useful for Head-fi'rs to read my views.

First, I would like to talk about what as a designer I am trying to accomplish, as it has a bearing on one's opinion of Hugo's sound. Imagine going around CES and carefully listening to all the high end hi-fi on show, so you can carefully listen to all the major high end brands available today. Next, listen center stage row 10 to an orchestra. Now, in my opinion, high end Hi-fi sounds from very bad to absolutely awful compared to live acoustic music. The key difference in the sound is variability - live acoustic music has unbelievable variations in the perception of space, timbre, dynamics and rhythm. Additionally, each instrument sounds separate and as distinct entities. By comparison, high-end audio is severely compressed - depth of sound stage is limited to a few feet (listen to off stage effects in say Mahler first - in a concert the off stage effects sound a couple of hundred feet away but on a hi-fi it is an ambient sound a few feet away). Timbre is compressed - you don't get a really rich and smooth instrument playing at the same time as something bright. The biggest problem is the dominance effect - the loudest instrument is the one that drags your attention away - this constant see-saw of attention is the biggest reason for listening fatigue, a major problem with Hi-fi.

So I am approaching designing of Hi-fi from the POV of accepting that there are enormous differences between conventional Hi-Fi and real music, and that I want my equipment to be as transparent as possible. Now some peoples idea of transparency is to use distortion to artificially enhance the sound, and this is a real problem with listening tests - a superficially brighter sound, giving the impression of better detail resolution, is often distortion. So a real challenge is defining what true transparency is. My definition, is to latch onto the idea of variations - if a modification makes the sound more variable, then its more expressive, and hence more transparent, even if it sounds, in tonal balance, darker or smoother and superficially less impressive. Now, if you think that your Hi-Fi sounds better than live acoustic music - then fine, we will agree to disagree. You are looking for a sculpted sound, not a truly transparent one, and I would strongly advise never to buy equipment designed by myself, as I am striving for equipment with no added sound.

So how does this relate to Hugo? Hugo was on the tail end of a long series of incremental improvements in digital design. I have spent the last 7 years on R and D to fundamentally improve aspects of DAC performance - improvements in the jitter rejection, RF noise filtering, noise shaper topologies, WTA filter length, analogue design plus a lot of other things. Moreover, Hugo took advantage of a big step forward in the capabilities of FPGA's - I could do important things that I knew influenced the sound but that previously were not possible due to FPGA limitations. So Hugo was at the confluence of two events - a big step forward from 7 years work in understanding digital design plus a major step forward in FPGA capability. It is just an accident that it happened with a portable headphone product.

So Hugo was the first instance when all these improvements came together. When I finally heard the pre-production unit with all the improvements in place I could not believe the sound quality improvements that I first heard. It completely changed my expectations of what was possible from digital audio - I was hearing things that I have never heard from Hi-fi ever - in other words, the gap from Hi-fi to live acoustic music was suddenly very much closer. Most notable was rapid rhythms being reproduced with breathtaking clarity - before piano music sounded like a jumble of notes, now I could hear each key being played distinctly. The next major change was timbre variations - suddenly each instrument had their own distinct timbre qualities, and the loudest instrument dominance effect was gone. Also gone was listening fatigue - I can listen for 12 hours quite happily.

But by far the biggest change was not sound quality, but on the musicality. I found myself listening and enjoying much more music, in a way I have never experienced before with a new design (and anybody who knows something of my designing career knows that is a lot of designs). 

So my conclusion is this: Hugo does things that no other DAC at any price point does. Now I can say readers saying, well OK he would say that anyway, it's his baby. True - I can't argue with that POV. But let's examine the facts:

1. The interpolation filter is key to recreating the amplitude and timing of the original recording. We know the ear/brain can resolve 4uS of timing - that is 250 kHz sampling rate. To recreate the original timing and amplitude perfectly, you need infinite tap lengths FIR filters. That is a mathematical certainty. Hugo has the largest tap length by far of any other production DAC available at any price.

2. RF noise has a major influence in sound quality, and digital DAC's create a lot of noise. Hugo has the most efficient digital filtering of any other production DAC - it filters with a 3 stage filter at 2048 FS. The noise shapers run at 104 MHz, some 20 times faster than all other DAC's (excepting my previous designs). What does this mean? RF noise at 1 MHz is 1000 times lower than all other DAC's, so noise floor modulation effects are dramatically reduced, giving a much smoother and more natural sound quality.

3. The lack of DAC RF OP noise means that the analogue section can be made radically simpler as the analogue filter requirements are smaller. Now in analogue terms, making it simpler, with everything else being constant, gives more transparency. You really can hear every solder joint, every passive component, and every active stage. Now Hugo has a single active stage - a very high performance op-amp with a discrete op-stage as a hybrid with a single global feedback path. This arrangement means that you have a single active stage, two resistors and two capacitors in the direct signal path -  and that is it. Note: there is no headphone drive. Normal high performance DAC's have 3 op-amp stages, followed by a separate headphone amp. So to conclude - Hugo's analogue path is not a simple couple of op-amps chucked together, it is fundamentally simpler than all other headphone amp solutions.

This brings me on to my biggest annoyance - the claim that Hugo's amp is merely good. Firstly, no body can possibly know how good the headphone amp in Hugo is, because there is not a separate headphone stage as such - its integrated into the DAC function directly. You can't remove the sound of the headphone amp from the sound of the DAC, it's one and the same.

Struck by these reports, I decided to investigate, as I see reported problems as a way of improving things in the future. I want to find weakness, my desire is to improve. So I tried loading the OP whilst listening on line level (set to 3v RMS). With 300 ohm, you can hear absolutely no change in sound. Running with 33 ohm, you can hear a small degradation - its slightly brighter. This is consistent with THD going from 0.0004% to 0.0007%. Note these distortion figures are way smaller than desktop headphone amps. Also note that with real headphones at this level you would be at typically ear deafening 115dB SPL. Plugging in real headphones (at much lower levels) gives no change in sound quality too. This has been reported by other posters - adding multiple headphones to Hugo does not degrade sound at all.

So how do we reconcile reports that desktop headphone amps sound better? I don't believe they do, its a case of altering the sound to suit somebody's taste. Now as I said at the beginning of this post, that is not what I want to do - I want things to sound transparent, so that we can get closer to the sound of live acoustic music. Adding an extra headphone amp will only make things worse as extra components degrades transparency. Another possibility is that people are responding against Hugo's unusually (for a headphone amp) low output impedance of 0.075 ohms. Now, compared to headphone amps of 2 to 33 ohms impedance, this will make the sound much leaner with less bass. Additionally, the improvements in damping can be heard as a much tighter bass with a faster tempo. So if you find your headphone too lean, the problem is not Hugo's drive - your headphone is just been driven correctly.                 

Just to close to all Hugo owners - enjoy! I hope you get as much fun from your music as I have done with Hugo. 
 
Dec 4, 2016 at 9:14 AM Post #14,241 of 15,694
Quote:
So how do we reconcile reports that desktop headphone amps sound better? I don't believe they do, its a case of altering the sound to suit somebody's taste. Now as I said at the beginning of this post, that is not what I want to do - I want things to sound transparent, so that we can get closer to the sound of live acoustic music. Adding an extra headphone amp will only make things worse as extra components degrades transparency. Another possibility is that people are responding against Hugo's unusually (for a headphone amp) low output impedance of 0.075 ohms. Now, compared to headphone amps of 2 to 33 ohms impedance, this will make the sound much leaner with less bass. Additionally, the improvements in damping can be heard as a much tighter bass with a faster tempo. So if you find your headphone too lean, the problem is not Hugo's drive - your headphone is just been driven correctly.

 
I'm with x Relic x and Rob. If you think the Hugo's headphone out isn't good enough and needs some support from an external amp: you still use the very same signal (supposed to be not good enough) and amplify it further, just to reduce it again via the amp's potentiometer. – It is important to know that headphone out and line out are the same signal path!
 
In my experience the reduction of transparency from a coloring amp introduces a forgivingness to tonal flaws, particularly from the notoriously imperfect sound transducers. Note that every single amp colors the sound more or less, otherwise it would sound the same as the Hugo's headphone output. Add to this the DAC (Hugo) itself, which certainly isn't perfect (e.g. compared to the DAVE). Some say it is slightly bright. So an amp with a compensating signature may sound «better» from both factors: tonal synergy and forgivingness through reduced transparency. My own approach of individual EQ curves for every set of headphones makes me independent from component synergy, and the linearized frequency responses on the ear drums make the «unvarnished truth» bearable, renouncing added spices in the form of homeopathic harmonic distortion.
 
From this perspective I can wholeheartedly recommend the pairing of the Hugo (and of course the TT) with HD 800 and HE1000. It has more than enough power to properly drive them. No added amp I've tried them with could achieve the transient spead and dynamics of the direct connection. (For some reason the HE1000 doesn't sound as good with the Mojo, despite equal power.) To those who still advocate the GSX MkII as a «wire with gain amp»: Be brave and try the direct connection combined with careful equalizing!
smile.gif
 
 
Dec 4, 2016 at 9:18 AM Post #14,242 of 15,694
TT was clearly designed with a more powerful power supply and to help with "transients" it uses super capacitors. You can see the difference comparing Hugo and TT here:

http://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/amp/chord-hugo.php

Code:
Ohm mW
16 15,87 
25 20,51 
31 41,48 
62 80,84 
100 127,18
199 101,49
300 67,28
763 26,48

and here:

http://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/amp/chord-hugo-tt.php

Code:
Ohm mW
16 255,93
25 331,61
31 336,26
62 207,98
100 130,00
199 65,46 
300 43,43 
763 17,08

TT has more than twice the power of Hugo, 337mW versus 127mW.

Notice that power at 300 Ohms (HD 800 S has minimum impedance of 334 Ohms according to the same site) is lower with TT. That's because it has a lower maximum voltage of 3.61V root mean square, compared with 4.5V RMS for Hugo. At 300 ohm for HD 800 S, Hugo has 2dB more sound pressure level (119dB versus 117dB), which is a difference you could detect (through the pain? pain versus slightly more pain?).

These numbers suggest that Hugo drives HD 800 S better than TT, if you talk about loudness only. The T'HD graphs on those pages (look for the section called "THD vs load vs output voltage") also indicate that Hugo is better at 300 Ohms (very small difference). Unfortunately these tests don't show what happens with transients, which are the type of sound that requires "power" during normal listening.

I have seen one person (on another forum) prefer Hugo over TT. Everyone else prefers TT, sometimes to the extent that they wouldn't buy Hugo, but would buy TT. So, overall, it seems the numbers don't tell you much that's meaningful. TT will drive 31 Ohm headphones better than Hugo, having 8 times more power, which in theory means TT will sound almost twice as loud. But that's about the limit of what these numbers tell us.

Having compared DAVE and TT, I discovered (not straight away, it was after a couple of hours) that TT has more distortion, phat bass, driving HD 800 S. Even after hearing this difference, it wasn't the dominant reason for preferring DAVE. That was playing quite loudly and turning the volume down a bit on TT made the distortion go away. No matter how loudly I played DAVE I couldn't hear this distortion appearing.

DAVE isn't massively more powerful than TT, as opposed to GSX Mk 2. One might say that DAVE doesn't have enough extra power, if we want to ask "do we need the power of GSX Mk 2?" So my comparison isn't that useful. But it did show me that TT is more distorted than DAVE, when listening loudly.

I think an amp with TT is a waste of money. But I haven't heard a better amp that isn't also a better DAC, as I've only compared DAVE to TT. A Hugo + GSX Mk 2 probably costs as much as TT on its own and probably sounds worse. The only other thing I've compared with TT is the Sennheiser HDVD 800 DAC and amplifier. That's worth about one-tenth of its cost, it is truly awful against TT - the DAC is an utter waste of time.

I also think a cable that costs as much as or more than HD 800 S is a waste of money.

In the end, just because people report being able to hear a difference, doesn't make it a difference that's worth the money. Sadly most people can't compare all these options unless they purchase the options, which makes comparisons a real nightmare. Or, it makes for a very active second hand market.

In the end it's very easy to take for granted just how damn good Chord's DAC/amps are. When you have to spend thousands extra to get a slight improvement it's a big clue: save your money.

It's tempting for me to say that the meaningful upgrade from Hugo is DAVE, but I haven't compared TT and Hugo, so I can't say whether I think TT is worthwhile. I suspect out of all the people who have compared Hugo and TT there's about half who think TT is worth the upgrade.
 
Dec 4, 2016 at 10:39 AM Post #14,243 of 15,694
I believe, or am one of the half that thinks TT is worth the upgrade from a sq perspective. The topography of gsx mk2 is such that xlr balanced out is the only viable option to get the full benefits of the amp. Again I'm not trying to draw so much attention to this particular amp, although it is what i have and by default what i know. Or think i know through my ears. 
Concerning whether its a waste of money amping TT, with in my case GSX MK2, no it is not. Im squeezing more sound fulfillment from TT and that improvement albeit marginal, means everything. Same with my cables, now concerning monetary value, in the end lets not go there. If nothing is better financially or dave is an easy discretion is up to the listener. As I have complimented you on the heads up for the 65$ canadian dollar audio quest jitterbug for improving my experience, my amp and cables are doing same. There are things i have purchased that I'm not sure about any Sq enhancements from USB to power conditioners, but I treat them as insurance. But for my ears the other aspects have. 
Sorry to derail hugo thread if in fact this has happened. 
 
Dec 4, 2016 at 1:01 PM Post #14,244 of 15,694
   

Isn't the DAC in 2 Cute the same as Hugo?

 
Yes, but you have some key differentiators:
 
  1. The 2Qute is basically the Hugo without the headphone out section, so you will need a headphone amp
  2. The 2Qute has a fixed line-out level of 3V - not all amplifiers can cope with 3V, so this can be a key constraint for some potential users 
  3. The 2Qute is intended for static use (ie not portable) so uses a power supply, that allows galvanic isolation of the USB inputs, leading to less electrical input noise, and improved sound quality compared to the Hugo
  4. The Hugo without the galvanic isolation, can suffer from input noise - this is an issue for some people, and there are several HF threads based on peoples attempts to mod their Hugos, or add noise reduction in other ways
 
The 2Qute can be the better solution for some users, but they need to check that their amp is suitable, before they buy one. 
 
Dec 4, 2016 at 1:22 PM Post #14,245 of 15,694
TT was clearly designed with a more powerful power supply and to help with "transients" it uses super capacitors. You can see the difference comparing Hugo and TT here:

http://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/amp/chord-hugo.php Code:
Code:
 Ohm mW 16 15,87 25 20,51 31 41,48 62 80,84 100 127,18 199 101,49 300 67,28 763 26,48

and here:

http://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/amp/chord-hugo-tt.php Code:
Code:
 Ohm mW 16 255,93 25 331,61 31 336,26 62 207,98 100 130,00 199 65,46 300 43,43 763 17,08

TT has more than twice the power of Hugo, 337mW versus 127mW.

Notice that power at 300 Ohms (HD 800 S has minimum impedance of 334 Ohms according to the same site) is lower with TT. That's because it has a lower maximum voltage of 3.61V root mean square, compared with 4.5V RMS for Hugo. At 300 ohm for HD 800 S, Hugo has 2dB more sound pressure level (119dB versus 117dB), which is a difference you could detect (through the pain? pain versus slightly more pain?).

These numbers suggest that Hugo drives HD 800 S better than TT, if you talk about loudness only. The T'HD graphs on those pages (look for the section called "THD vs load vs output voltage") also indicate that Hugo is better at 300 Ohms (very small difference). Unfortunately these tests don't show what happens with transients, which are the type of sound that requires "power" during normal listening.

I have seen one person (on another forum) prefer Hugo over TT. Everyone else prefers TT, sometimes to the extent that they wouldn't buy Hugo, but would buy TT. So, overall, it seems the numbers don't tell you much that's meaningful. TT will drive 31 Ohm headphones better than Hugo, having 8 times more power, which in theory means TT will sound almost twice as loud. But that's about the limit of what these numbers tell us.

Having compared DAVE and TT, I discovered (not straight away, it was after a couple of hours) that TT has more distortion, phat bass, driving HD 800 S. Even after hearing this difference, it wasn't the dominant reason for preferring DAVE. That was playing quite loudly and turning the volume down a bit on TT made the distortion go away. No matter how loudly I played DAVE I couldn't hear this distortion appearing.

DAVE isn't massively more powerful than TT, as opposed to GSX Mk 2. One might say that DAVE doesn't have enough extra power, if we want to ask "do we need the power of GSX Mk 2?" So my comparison isn't that useful. But it did show me that TT is more distorted than DAVE, when listening loudly.

I think an amp with TT is a waste of money. But I haven't heard a better amp that isn't also a better DAC, as I've only compared DAVE to TT. A Hugo + GSX Mk 2 probably costs as much as TT on its own and probably sounds worse. The only other thing I've compared with TT is the Sennheiser HDVD 800 DAC and amplifier. That's worth about one-tenth of its cost, it is truly awful against TT - the DAC is an utter waste of time.

I also think a cable that costs as much as or more than HD 800 S is a waste of money.

In the end, just because people report being able to hear a difference, doesn't make it a difference that's worth the money. Sadly most people can't compare all these options unless they purchase the options, which makes comparisons a real nightmare. Or, it makes for a very active second hand market.

In the end it's very easy to take for granted just how damn good Chord's DAC/amps are. When you have to spend thousands extra to get a slight improvement it's a big clue: save your money.

It's tempting for me to say that the meaningful upgrade from Hugo is DAVE, but I haven't compared TT and Hugo, so I can't say whether I think TT is worthwhile. I suspect out of all the people who have compared Hugo and TT there's about half who think TT is worth the upgrade.

 
Not sure what you measured but Rob has stated the Mojo, Hugo and Hugo TT have the same power output.
 
Dec 4, 2016 at 2:38 PM Post #14,246 of 15,694
Yes but mojo, Hugo, and TT do not sound the same quantitatively and qualitatively, Robb also explained why.
 
Dec 4, 2016 at 3:19 PM Post #14,247 of 15,694
Not sure what you measured but Rob has stated the Mojo, Hugo and Hugo TT have the same power output.

I haven't measured anything, I am quoting the numbers posted by someone else. You're right to raise a question on the technique used for these tests, since I don't know the distortion level used.

I believe Rob quotes power at 1% THD.

For example, at "full power" according to that site, Hugo might have 10x more distortion than TT. But it seems the site is fairly serious about the quality of its testing and presentation of its results, so it seems unlikely that they would make such a serious error, using inconsistent distortion levels. Regardless, without knowing the testing distortion, their numbers can't be compared with other people's numbers.

They test at just below the limit before clipping, it seems. In some of the tables there are three sets of columns labelled "clear", "optimal" and "hard". The numbers I quoted earlier come from the "hard" column. There are no numbers in the other two columns.

I'm afraid to say that it would require a detailed investigation through this site to find out more about the THD level for these tests. I don't speak Russian, so it's difficult...

Maybe some other sites have done good tests?
 
Dec 4, 2016 at 6:17 PM Post #14,248 of 15,694
Yes the simple truth of Robs design is that it's the overarching complexity of the digital part of his approach is that it's is able to so perfectly reproduce an almost perfect analogue waveform representation still in digital form. This is achieved by so many more minuscule blocks of digital data that complex analogue filtration to smooth out that would be required traditionally for a typical Dac in which the blocks would by the final stage would still be the usual Lego massive rather blocky stepped wave form. Therefore Rob's much smoother waveform of far more tiny steps just does not require anything complex at the final convention stage to smooth out the waveform. I hope I've explained this in an understanderble way .
 
Dec 4, 2016 at 6:35 PM Post #14,249 of 15,694
Yes the simple truth of Robs design is that it's the overarching complexity of the digital part of his approach is that it's is able to so perfectly reproduce an almost perfect analogue waveform representation still in digital form. This is achieved by so many more minuscule blocks of digital data that complex analogue filtration to smooth out that would be required traditionally for a typical Dac in which the blocks would by the final stage would still be the usual Lego massive rather blocky stepped wave form. Therefore Rob's much smoother waveform of far more tiny steps just does not require anything complex at the final convention stage to smooth out the waveform. I hope I've explained this in an understanderble way .


Actually John, you just made me want to purchase some Lego for my son (who happens to be 18)! :veryevil:
 
Dec 4, 2016 at 7:44 PM Post #14,250 of 15,694
...

From this perspective I can wholeheartedly recommend the pairing of the Hugo (and of course the TT) with HD 800 and HE1000. It has more than enough power to properly drive them. No added amp I've tried them with could achieve the transient spead and dynamics of the direct connection. (For some reason the HE1000 doesn't sound as good with the Mojo, despite equal power.) To those who still advocate the GSX MkII as a «wire with gain amp»: Be brave and try the direct connection combined with careful equalizing! :smile:  

So great to have my hope confirmed. I have an HD800, an HE1000, and a Hugo awaiting Christmas, under the tree!
 

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