[saint.panda]

We had a great mini-meet in Zurich today with JaZZ, Kurt, Urs and myself. Urs brought an amazing array of headphones (R10, L3000, Omega II) and I'm so glad I finally to go listen to these amazing headphones. Thank you Urs! Other than thad we had JaZZ's new Corda Opera, his usual McCormack UDP-1, AKG K701, HD650 with various cables and my Apogee Mini-Dac fed from a Macbook Pro via USB. Some other headphones and amps were present but I think we didn't listen to those.

Some impressions:

L3000
System: Apogee Minidac, Minidac's headphone out
Not my cup of tea at all in terms of tonal character and frequency response. Somewhat nasal sounding and just weird for my tastes. I didn't listen to these long so I can't really comment on them. I like to listen to music at fairly loud levels and the L3000 isn't really made for this. I think the loudness level thing is the main reason for me not liking this headphone.

Omega II
System: Apogee Minidac, JaZZ's Stax amp (T1 perhaps?)
Amazing headphones with great clarity, soundstage, bass, resolution, etc. I really, really liked these. Its greatest ability was that I could so easily switch between the various layers of music effortlessly. Picking out different instruments was a piece of cake. It's also smooth, perhaps a tad too much for certain songs, and had amazingly good impact for an electrostat. The bass was great: deep (!) and pretty hard hitting. So much better than the SR-404 I used to have. I'm also a big fan of its "dark" tonal character, just the way I like it. Should I consider getting seriously into headphones again, the Omega II is pretty high on my list, probably at number one at the moment.

R10
System: Apogee MiniDac, Minidac's headphone out.
In a word: wow. The R10 had the ability to let me forget about analysing the headphoneand simply let me enjoy the music - something stated so many times before and I can finally understand why. Great soundstage, out-of-the-world mids, pretty good bass, nice highs (a tad brigher than I like it to be), amazing resolution. With the a better amp, I'm sure it would have been even more amazing. Between the Omega II and the R10, I preferred the Omega for classical music and the R10 for pretty much everything else. Too bad it's insanely expensive and discontinued. The R10 just let me listen to the music and not the headphones themselves. Perhaps the R10 is euphonic sounding, but I don't care. It made my music sound great and is really comfortable to boot.

Corda Opera
I compared two systems: Macbook to Opera using its own Dac and HD 650 with single-ended Zu vs. Macbook to Minidac using HD 650 with balanced Zu. Frankly, I greatly preferred the Apogee. Perhaps the Apogee simply has a better dac or it was the balanced mode, hard to tell but considering you can get the Apogee for the same price as the Corda, I would go for the Apogee for the HD 650. For other single-ended headphones, the Opera is the better choice. As for sound differences, the HD 650 running balanced from the Apogee had a much bigger soundstage, better treble extension and more air all around, it simply sounded more open and bigger. Bass was a bit weaker than the Opera but still good.
And although it's not good to judge by memory and there are different sources involved, I think my Headcode back then (twice the price of the Corda) was better-sounding, and also better than using the Apogee's XLR outs. This is just as a reference point.
The Opera certainly is a great amp (it made the K701 sing like never before), but for a pure HD 650 based setup, I think the Apogee MiniDac is the better solution. Not sure how it would sound with other balanced headphones. In any case, bear in mind I only listened to the Opera for perhaps 15 minutes continuosly and it's only burned in for 95 hours.

AKG K701
System: McCormack UDP1, Corda Opera
Still great-sounding with excellent synergy with the Opera. Really tight bass. But I still prefer the Hd 650 due to its tonal characteristics.

 

[JaZZ]

It was a really enjoyable meet. Although the start was a bit irritating, as Urs arrived half an hour too early, right when I was in the shower.

In exchange he brought I nice bunch of gear with him. First I didn't find anything special about the R10, but after a while it grew on me, and I found it to have outstanding resolution and detail, a very well controlled and extended bass and a natural, fairly neutral sonic balance with just a slight treble accentuation. I think it's indeed one of the best dynamic headphones I've heard. But I better stop ranking gear which I only can listen for brief moments and in the hecticness of a meet. However, Urs and I agreed that his CEC HD-53 R was a slightly better match with it than the Opera, whereas with the K 701 the Opera was the better match. He also thought that the K 701 was astonishingly close to the R10's over-all performance, considering the price difference. And finally we agreed that the Opera had the warmer characteristic and (nevertheless) better detail than the CEC. The latter appeared as slightly sleek and cold to me.

The L3000 was a great disappointment: Apart from its very uncomfortable fit it sounded dull and uninspiring to me. But after a while -- connected to the Opera -- I could also detect its virtues: heavy bass impact, smoothness throughout the frequency spectrum and high resolution. It didn't sound very natural or neutral, though, and lacked air in every respect. I guess it needs specially matched components to shine -- which I don't consider impossible.

I also didn't like Urs' Stax SR-4070 when I first listened to it (connected to my modified SRM-T1): much too bright and somehow artificial. But later, I think still with the same recording (an opera), I found it quite acceptable and even pleasing with its extreme detail and transparency and its quite impactful bass reproduction; it just didn't show the airiness and soundstage I'm used to from my own electrostats (one of which uses the same [Lambda Pro] drivers, BTW, just angled).

In comparison the Omega II sounded very dark. But also more natural. And it offered a very good soundstage and the even higher resolution than the SR-4070 and my own Stax-based electrostats. The dominating trait to my ears was smoothness. And that was finally also a big handicap in my book, especially with harder music and drum attacks. They simply didn't sound natural and believable. In this respect I prefer my own electrostats, also because of the more natural sonic balance with airier treble, and rather accept the lower resolution (which is still very high) and the leaner bass, which still isn't lean at all in absolute terms, in turn the Omega's bass was a bit too strong and soft for my taste.

The biggest event for me was a rather humble and inconspicuous device: Tao's Apogee Mini-DAC. Well, my K 701 sounded flat and rather rough through its headphone out, but then I heard the HD 650 equipped with XLR cable from its balanced (line!) outputs. The naturalness and resolution was stunning -- I think it was the best 44.1-kHz PCM sound through headphones I've heard so far. Very organic and lifelike, with extremely good high-frequency definition. I'm not sure how I could live with it in the long run (let's say, when Tao would lend it to me for a few days...), since the bass was quite a bit leaner and the mids less sparkling (although more natural) than through the Opera, but it sounded extremely promising.

The biggest disappointment to me was that with all these top headphones around nobody seemed to care much for my new Opera

-- which was the original reason for the mini-meet. As always, I'm unhappy to not have (had) the opportunity for longer trial sessions with all this gear; I simply cannot seriously judge it from the few minutes at my disposal under meet conditions. And then there was Urs' omnipresent loud voice -- and I wasn't willing to dedicate the whole evening to the headphone with the best acoustic isolation (the SR-4070).

Thanks to Tao and Kurt for participating and especially Urs for offering us the opportunity to listen to all these big shots.
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[laxx]

Poor Opera. =[

Sounded like a great meet with all of those cans listed in the posts. Can any of you guys give a full list of all gear that was present?

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by laxx /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can any of you guys give a full list of all gear that was present?

Sources
McCormack UDP-1
the Opera's built-in DAC
Apogee Mini-DAC (with USB)
not used:
Bel Canto DAC2

Amps
Corda Opera
CEC HD-53 R
the Mini-DAC's XLR (line) and HP output
Stax SRM-T1 (modified)
not used:
Corda Aria prototype
passive HP «amp» (potentiometer)
Stax SRM-Xh

Headphones
Sennheiser HD 650 (x2)
AKG K 701
my two electrostats (see signature)
Audio Technica ATH-L3000
Sony MDR-R10
Stax SR-4070
Stax Omega II
not used:
Sennheiser HD 600
and others (see profile)

Cables
Zu Mobius
Zu Mobius balanced
Silver Dragon (x2)
Zu Gede IC
Silver Dragon IC (x2)
various homegrown ICs
.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda /img/forum/go_quote.gif Corda Opera I compared two systems: Macbook to Opera using its own Dac and HD 650 with single-ended Zu vs. Macbook to Minidac using HD 650 with balanced Zu. Frankly, I greatly preferred the Apogee. Perhaps the Apogee simply has a better dac or it was the balanced mode, hard to tell but considering you can get the Apogee for the same price as the Corda, I would go for the Apogee for the HD 650.

You haven't heard the right amp...

After 145 hours of burn-in, this is a completely different amp. The sound from its headphone out is now hard to distinguish from the original signal (from the DAC2). So much purity and clarity. It's not the same sound as from your Mini-DAC, though -- it's fuller, rounder and smoother.
.

 

[hallegirl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif The L3000 was a great disappointment: Apart from its very uncomfortable fit .

What its Lambskin! Needless to say they also sound good

 

[saint.panda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif You haven't heard the right amp... After 145 hours of burn-in, this is a completely different amp. The sound from its headphone out is now hard to distinguish from the original signal (from the DAC2). So much purity and clarity. It's not the same sound as from your Mini-DAC, though -- it's fuller, rounder and smoother. .

It's all placebo.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's all placebo.

I don't think so.

Although «completely different amp» is of course a slight overstatement.
.

 

[Voltron]

Looks like you had a nice meet in Zurich the same day we had one in San Francisco, and with two of the contending "kings" of all headphones--the R10 in Zurich and HE90 (x2) in SF! Nice day.

I also wanted to point out that JaZZ should be proud of me because I am listening to my HD600s with a very short Blue Dragon v.2 cable.

I seem to remember he thought that shorter was much better, and whatever it is I really like this combo. I have a BDv.2 extension but I have not been using it whenever possible.

Cheers, Al

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voltron /img/forum/go_quote.gif I also wanted to point out that JaZZ should be proud of me because I am listening to my HD600s with a very short Blue Dragon v.2 cable. I seem to remember he thought that shorter was much better, and whatever it is I really like this combo.

Hi Al

Of course I am!

Well done!
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[saint.panda]

So we had a 2 hour post-mini-meet micro-meet today at Marcel’s place. We focused on comparing the Opera to the Apogee using the HD 650 while adding the Mapletree Ear++ to the equation as well.

Gear used:
Amps: Corda Opera, Mapletree Ear++, Apogee Mini-Dac XLR line out driving balanced HD 650
Source: Apogee Mini-Dac, Opera Dac, McCormack UDP-1
Headphones: 90% HD 650 with Equinox XLR, Zu XLR, Zu single-ended


Some impressions (and not more than that):

Dac + amp: Opera vs. Apogee (using HD 650, balanced Zu):

Marcel and I disagreed here but I thought the Apogee setup using the HD 650 directly from the XLR line out and balanced Zu/Equinox was clearly superior to the HD 650 connected to the Opera using both the Opera's dac and amp. Most noticeably: the Apogee created a much larger soundstage with better focus and instrument placement whereas the Opera sounded more restricted and narrow, somewhat polished and rolled on top, and bit dark and almost bland in the midrange. Admittingly, the treble on the Apogee was almost a tad too much and here I greatly prefer the Equinox over the Zu to balance it out a bit. The Apogee setup just sounded more open, clearer and had more PRaT (something which I think the Opera lacks, and not because of timing or transient issues but rather a problem I have with the Opera's overall timbre). The Apogee is simply more natural sounding to me. More resolution, too? Perhaps, at least the details were more apparent. I just didn't find the Opera overly involving. Kleiber's Beethoven 5 lacked intensity and fire on the Opera and Rostropovich's Bach cello suites lacked a bit of its soul. Playing some recent Maceo Parker funk/jazz, the Opera didn't really get my toes tapping. I'm exagerrating a bit here but you get my point. And risking of repeating myself, it is really the soundstage, focus and openness of the Apogee setup that has me clealy favouring it over the Opera setup. Please note that we never tried the Apogee's actual headphone out, which I think is good but clearly not on Opera level.

DACs: Opera vs. Apogee (amp: Opera)
Ok, so maybe it was just a matter of Dacs, but just comparing the two Dacs using the Opera's amp, the Opera DAC turned out to be the darker one but otherwise held its own quite nicely. The Apogee's sound was rawer, more direct and more open on top with slightly better focus and less of the Opera's polished sound. I also think the Opera's dac was bit coloured but without a proper reference it's hard to make a definete statement. In any case, I didn't do this dac comparison in detail so take it with a bigger grain of salt than already.

Amps: Opera vs. Mapletree Ear++ III
This was interesting because I expected the Opera to be much better. In the end, the Opera had the slight advantage but I think it was close and very much depending on the music. With Buena Vista Social Club, Maceo Parker and the Bach cello suits, the Ear++ had more PRaT, a prettier tone (while still remaining fairly neutral!), and more intimate-sounding. Listening to Maceo Parker on the Opera as already said just didn't get my toes tapping and I couldn't feel the profoundness of Rostropovich's playing as much with the Opera. Of course, it's a very personal thing: either it clicks or it doesn't. The Opera on the other hand had the advantage with more impactful music where transient reponse was important. The Opera was more precise, open and hard-hitting on contemporary jazz and classical music, also with electronica. The Ear++ after all was a tad too wet and soft sounding and I think this would become a problem especially in the long term. The Apogee with balanced HD 650 was superior to both in my opinion.

Maybe just as a comment and to put things into perspective: I'm not really favouring the Apogee because it's mine as I don't really use my headphone setup very often. I mainly bought the Apogee because I wanted to have a nice dac that has XLR outs for my active monitors. And I actually like Corda gear in general (had a Corda HA-2 myself). For instance, I was one of the first and biggest advocates of the Corda Aria when it first came out.

As an overall conclusion from my impressions I think the Opera is still worth its money because it has a great dac and great amp in one. The HD 650 is an exception because running it balanced is so easy, which is why I wouldn't really recommend the Opera if the intention is to use it with the HD 650 (unless you have a world-class source which doesn't have XLR outs).

 

[JaZZ]

I fully respect Tao's opinion. And of course he's right in that the direct connection (of the HD 650 to the Apogee's XLR outputs) is unbeatable when it comes to signal accuracy. No doubt about it. A further amplification stage can only degrade the signal, and be it in a euphonic way.

And that's exactly what the Opera does to some degree. Funny, I was maybe the first direct-connection advocate, and sometimes I felt appointed to preach the truth about amps -- how most of them color the sound in a pleasing way, and more expensive doesn't mean more true to the original signal. Because the latter, fed to a headphone directly, doesn't sound particularly pleasing or exciting, even though it shows its superiority in every single sonic criterion. That's why I haven't insisted -- for myself -- in the puristic way, just thought to myself that I'll never buy an amp which costs more than ~$1200. And I haven't changed my mind.

But I have fallen in love with the Opera. Apart from the fact that it sounds quite similar to the direct connection to the Bel Canto DAC2, it seems to have even higher resolution and detail than the latter, and it just sounds so unobtrusive and neutral. Not a PRAT monster by no means, which I wouldn't appreciate to begin with, just the music how it was meant to be.

I agree that the direct connection to the Apogee offers even better detail and control, larger soundstage and better instrument placement -- but together with its slight treble emphasis it's not a merely enjoyable experience. It just lacks the flowing nature of the Opera, its liquid-smoothness and clarity. Instead it puts an emphasis on detail and focus, which makes the sound a bit dry for my taste. However, it is an incredibly capable DAC, the technically best I've heard if you will (in direct-connection mode), just not exactly corresponding to my sonic ideal. On the other hand, connecting it to the Opera changes everything.

Which, of course, shows that the Opera colors the sound in a pleasing way. Well, not quite: Since the Opera doesn't have balanced inputs, it was connected via single-ended RCA cables. So it wasn't exactly the same signal which was amplified by the Opera.

To put things in perspective: No amp will be able to beat the Apogee Mini-DAC in direct connection when it comes to signal accuracy, no matter how expensive. This would be an unfair claim. But apart from this circumstance, I'm currently so happy with the sound from the Opera that I don't care for rationalizations. It provides the best headphone sound I've heard so far. It took more than 300 hours of burn-in to get this far, though.

I really liked the Ear from the start: a very organic, natural sound with excellent soundstage and great FR extension. But after a while I began to find it a bit slow and not so much inspiring, especially while comparing it to the Opera. Despite its atmospheric presentation, it lacked the latter's colorfulness and vividity. On the other hand, right after switching from the Ear to the Opera, the latter sounded like a solid-state amp: less organic and slightly technical. Luckily this impression vanished after a few beats.

All in all I was much happier this evening than I was after the first mini-meet. The Opera has held its own against the Apogee Mini-DAC, and I'm really proud of it!
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[smallcaps]

where are you guys buying your cans in Zurich? i have tried Musik Hug but can't seem to find another retailer that has the same kind of high-end selection.

thanks!