[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meyvn /img/forum/go_quote.gif Responding to a post that's unreasonable and uncalled for with a direct attack on someone else isn't the best way to do it. After all, I don't come and say you're deluded for hearing a difference.

you are right there is no need for personal attacks, which my previous post was certainly not intended to be read as such.

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aznsensazian /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh there is no doubt that a $1000 dac will sound better than a $60 dac.

Always ? would you stake your life on it

I have done a great deal of research on this and I have found many many cases of controlled Blind tetsts where participants could not detect a difference between two components - even when the price differential was up to many thousands of dollars. Many of these tests were performed using very high end amps and speakers.

This does not mean that all sources sound the same but sometimes two sources do sound the same regardless of the technical superiority of one over the other or the price.

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Always ? would you stake your life on it I have done a great deal of research on this and I have found many many cases of controlled Blind tetsts where participants could not detect a difference between two components - even when the price differential was up to many thousands of dollars. Many of these tests were performed using very high end amps and speakers. This does not mean that all sources sound the same but sometimes two sources do sound the same regardless of the technical superiority of one over the other or the price.

I think this is a DBT-free zone

 

[skullguise]

I recently had a shootout at a firend's. He owns a Rega Planet 2000. I brought the Citypulse DAC (stock TCXO non-socketed chip), the Zhaolu 2.5C (OPA2604 opamps at the time).

I was pleasantly surprised at how good the Planet 2000 still sounds. It was basically neck and neck with the Citypulse, and the Zhaolu was a BIT preferred to both our ears. It was clear there were differences, but they weren't HUGE differences. And it was close enough that he decided to hold off on an outboard DAC for now.

So I'm not surprised that an over-achieving source, even one expected to sound cheap, does so well. Sometimes you get that diamond in the rough.

Now, mod'd Zhaolu's seem to get good steps up in quality for not a lot of $, I think that's what makes them so nice. I haven't bypassed the caps on mine, but have put in OPA2107's. That improved the sound a bit to my ears.

I also have an Oritek-mod'd Zhaolu 2.0A. THIS thing is just gorgeous! It lacks some bass impact (though Ori has an update that helps), but the transparency and crystal clarity from mid-bass on up is amazing IMO. I bet the Zapfilter has similar results.

I threw the mod'd DAC into a budget system, with Toshiba DVD as transport, the Zhaolu as DAC (this one has passive volume control), and a Gainclone amp driving Sound Dynamics RTS-3 speakers. Damned if Jane Monheit wasn't in my room crooning seductively into my ears!

I think a lot of folks like the Zhaolu because of their potential and value for the price, and a lot dislike them because, at least stock, they are good but not great. A lot of hype, but to my ears, they meet it - after some mods and/or opamp rolling.

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by skullguise /img/forum/go_quote.gif I also have an Oritek-mod'd Zhaolu 2.0A. THIS thing is just gorgeous! It lacks some bass impact (though Ori has an update that helps), but the transparency and crystal clarity from mid-bass on up is amazing IMO.

I just shipped off my Ori Zhaolu today for that "update," so hopefully that will help with the low bass slam. You're right about the transparency of Ori Zhaolu, and even though I can probably blow $3-4,000 on a used DAC right now, I keep holding on to the Ori Zhaolu...

 

[skullguise]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon L /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just shipped off my Ori Zhaolu today for that "update," so hopefully that will help with the low bass slam. You're right about the transparency of Ori Zhaolu, and even though I can probably blow $3-4,000 on a used DAC right now, I keep holding on to the Ori Zhaolu...

Great, please post once it's back and playing a bit, would love to hear about it. Ori just mentioned it to me when I emailed last week, I'm tempted myself. But I'm not currently using a subwoofer, so it matters a litle less to me right now.

 

[regal]

There are trends in cyber space to pay a few vocal members (seeds) on forums to pitch their product. It is cheap advertising with a domino effect.

 

[utep10]

Quote:

Originally Posted by skullguise /img/forum/go_quote.gif Great, please post once it's back and playing a bit, would love to hear about it. Ori just mentioned it to me when I emailed last week, I'm tempted myself. But I'm not currently using a subwoofer, so it matters a litle less to me right now.

This mod helped appease my problem with the rolled off bass. It is not a very dramatic difference but enough for me. The bass may go slightly lower but is still very tight. I notice mostly that there is more impact with it though. I guess I just wanted to feel the bass some. BTW, this is with my speaker system. ASR seemed to really enjoy this DAC with my MPX3 at the Silicon Valley meet last Sunday.

 

[uzziah]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif What I can't believe is that the same people who say that to their ears the differences in gear are negligible then turn around and preach this as absolute truth for everyone else. The only truth here is that everyone hears differently. What is a pronounced difference to me may be slight for another and moreover what I perceive as good sound may be wretched for someone else. To the OP, If you hear no difference between your DAC and your CD changer the only problem I would see is if they both sound bad. The question then would be what to do to make something sound good. But if they both sound good sell the DAC and be happy that you just saved some coin. Heck, roll it into some more music to enjoy.

not only absolutely right, but also an essential way to think about audiophilia

 

[Herandu]

I played with loads of DACs as part of my job whilst trying to develop various AV products. Our technical department needed the best of everything with a budget not far away from my own salary. To say that I was disillusioned with what I had to listen to is an understatement. After you strip away the expensive case and PSU, and then connect the analogue output to the various test equipment it is a minefield of junk out there. Some are mere reproductions of the examples in the chip manufacturer datasheets.
I don't know what classifies as best, neither do I know to what degree the perception of being better qualifies as an improvement. Either way, I got fed up years ago of having to put up with inferior designs and rip off prices. Especially from the manufacturers who bring out one unit, then more or less force you to spend several times the cost of the unit before it does a proper job. How many stock DACs can stand on their own? Most need modifying at several times their original price in some cases, before they are OK.
Well I intend to make a stand on behalf of the true audiophiles who don't have shed loads of money to pay for every percentage of improvements. Other DAC builders might now hate my guts and the hate mail might be piling up, but enough is enough. The market needs affordable solutions that can expose the con that has been going on for years. Too many of us believe that the more you pay the better you get. eBay is full of expensive gear sold at a huge discounts by disillusioned first time buyers. Am I surprised? Nope.

 

[ruaneg]

ive used a zhalou 1.3 with a sony 300cd changer and the improvements were pretty significant i thought. cdp-355 i think. That said the Lite Dac-ah sounded almost the exact same as the changer!!

I think digital sources make pretty subtle differences. For instance when you read about the first edition of the playstation being discovered as the next dogs bollox..says it all.

Saying all that the Mhdt contantine i bought to replace the zhalou is incredible. The bass was deeper, timbre perfect WOWEE!!

Seriously it actually was a nice difference, but i would never spend alot on a source. Amps and speakers are by far the most important. Cables , power conditioners ,,even different makes of tubes are VERY subtle differences. I think with source theres a big diifernce between a 50 quid source and a 400.

 

[Banach]

Very interesting thread. My short experience is teaching me that for some reason people tend to magnify differences. To me the only plainly audible differences are those coming from changing speakers or cans. IMHO electronics are not that important above some standard level. I respect of course the opinion of those for whom differences are evident but I am becoming more and more suspicious of trusting other's ears when my money is at stake, I even distrust my own ears which seem to behave differently from one day to the next.

 

[Herandu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banach /img/forum/go_quote.gif Very interesting thread. My short experience is teaching me that for some reason people tend to magnify differences. To me the only plainly audible differences are those coming from changing speakers or cans. IMHO electronics are not that important above some standard level. I respect of course the opinion of those for whom differences are evident but I am becoming more and more suspicious of trusting other's ears when my money is at stake, I even distrust my own ears which seem to behave differently from one day to the next.

After you have had more experience you are going to discover that you were wrong in your initial remarks or that you are tone def. I have an A-B set up that allows for testing of up to 6 units at the same time. The time difference between switching from one to another is less than 1 seconds. But in your opinion electronics are not that important above some standard level I would not advise you to spend on anything more expensive than an iPod or a music center.

 

[Banach]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herandu /img/forum/go_quote.gif After you have had more experience you are going to discover that you were wrong in your initial remarks or that you are tone def. I have an A-B set up that allows for testing of up to 6 units at the same time. The time difference between switching from one to another is less than 1 seconds. But in your opinion electronics are not that important above some standard level I would not advise you to spend on anything more expensive than an iPod or a music center.

You are right, standard is not the best word. Replace it with suitable. If you want to feed a pair of big ATC's with a T-amp that won't be a good idea. You will obviously need more power. This, however, is not the same as having to expend thousands of dollars in amplification. This is what I mean. Regarding blind tests upon A-B switching there are interesting examples. For instance, in one ot those amplification tests people (not deaf ones) were unable to distinguish a Mark Levinson from a humble Yamaha receiver (all the remaining (good quality) components the same) and there are many others. I am only saying that from my experience so far I believe that one must always take other's comments with a grain of salt, especially concerning electronics.

 

[Herandu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banach /img/forum/go_quote.gif Regarding blind tests upon A-B switching there are interesting examples. For instance, in one ot those amplification tests people (not deaf ones) were unable to distinguish a Mark Levinson from a humble Yamaha receiver (all the remaining (good quality) components the same) and there are many others. I am only saying that from my experience so far I believe that one must always take other's comments with a grain of salt, especially concerning electronics.

Thank you for the corrections. It is difficult to judge performance based on things such as price or words of others. I myself prefer a period in which I can test something and send it back if I can't hear an improvement. Cost is then not an issue. I can then also enlist the ears of any visiting friends in order to confirm things. eBay is full of expensive gear bought in haste. Some sellers claim it is because they "upgraded" when in fact they downgraded after realizing there was a cheaper alternative.