[Alex Altorfer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welly Wu I am expanding this thread to go beyond the top 10 mistakes that I have made in this hobby. It is now infinity plus one. 11. "Burn in." There is no credible scientific evidence that burn in exists within both the scientific and academic communities. There is no credible scientific analysis and evidence that exists to show through objective and balanced scientific measurements to prove that burn in exists with any and all electronic components whatsoever. However, the human mind and ego are susceptible. Audio manufacturers, including BPT, Cardas, Ray Samuels Audio, Wadia, and Ayre Acoustics, tell their consumers to allow for a specificed number of hours of burn in for their products to perform at their maximum levels. In turn, audio dealers remind their customers of that. It is all hogwash. They simply do not want you to request a refund or exchange for your purchase because doing so will hurt their bottom line and it is a major inconvenience for them to grant your request. After all, they have other people to scam. Burn in is perpetuated on this forum and it must stop. Not simply because I find it to be annoying, but the truth of the matter is that when you create a new thread about a new product, nine out of ten chances are that you have bought a product without an audition. C'mon, be honest. I have done it and so too have you my dear reader. You are simply writing about your honeymoon phase with the new toy because you don't know it well because you did not get to hear it in your reference system beforehand. So, tell the truth by telling us your feelings and opinions, but don't use the words burn in because you and I know there is no concrete scientific proof that it exists. But, your feelings and opinions are real and they are valid (to a certain degree; after all, my opinion about my equipment constitutes the final word since no one else has ever heard it).

Welly Wu better be wearing an asbestos suit. LOL!

Huh, lousy return policies. That's why I have a Sony CDP-CE375 player that I used for only a month. It serves the purpose of collecting dust. Buying that paperweight was certainly a mistake.

Top mistake in this hobby? Pairing up low impedance Philips SBC HP-800 cans with the Rega Ear headamp and listening to a Vanessa Mae CD with the volume pot at 9 o'clock. Five minutes of it gave me twice the tinnitus I should otherwise have, and many months of painful otalgia.

 

[Welly Wu]

F U

 

[JaGWiRE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welly Wu Audio Connection has a 7 day return policy with a 10% restocking fee. The Home Theater Group has no refund, no exchange policy. Both sell $5000 and $3000 USD CD players. Both will tell me that at least 500 hours of burn in time is critical to hear the maximum performance from a Wadia 302 or Ayre Acoustics CX-7E. By the way, 24 hours X 7 days = 168 hours. 500 - 168 hours = 332 hours beyond their "generous" no-refund policies.

I think head-fiers should join together and create a super audio / audio parts / etc brand / store like bestbuy, where we offer 30 day full money back. If we get big enough we can actually make money! Only thing is, wea ll need to sell our headphones to invest into the organization, but when we profit we can buy whatever we want!

 

[Graz]

Some of my top mistakes:
- Initially dismissing the notion that I could truly use a PC as my sole, reference home source. E-MU 1212 and a decent DAC have changed everything for me.
- Wasting time and mental energy in the portable forum arguing the relative merits of iriver vs Apple. I now spend zero time in the portable forum.
- Assuming that better gear would make my music sound better. Just the opposite has occurred…I find much of my CD collection to now be virtually unlistenable due to low production & recording quality. I’ve now become much more aware of what CD’s in my collection “sound good”, but unfortunately these aren’t always the ones with the music I like most.
- And easily my #1 mistake in this hobby: not adding Kirosia to my ignore list sooner. (Just kidding.)

On burn-in…
The interesting thing about the burn-in “myth” (if you’re inclined to call it that), is that it is almost universally assumed that all burn-in results in a positive improvement to the piece of gear being burned in. If burn-in is a phenomenon whereby the components within the device are “settling” in to their appropriate or target operating characteristics, it stands to reason that the end-result of this process would be negative just about as often as it is positive. I’ve yet to hear anyone post that “it sounded good out of the box, but after 100 hours of burn-in, wow, it really sucks now”…

I think I’ve had more positives than negatives in this hobby overall. For the most part, I have:
- Kept my budget in check
- Made most purchases with a specific sound signature in mind

Sure, I’ve made a few impulse purchases that haven’t worked out along the way, but for the most part, I have very few regrets.

Peace,

Graz

 

[Ferbose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graz On burn-in… The interesting thing about the burn-in “myth” (if you’re inclined to call it that), is that it is almost universally assumed that all burn-in results in a positive improvement to the piece of gear being burned in. If burn-in is a phenomenon whereby the components within the device are “settling” in to their appropriate or target operating characteristics, it stands to reason that end-result of this process would be negative just about as often as it is positive. I’ve yet to hear anyone post that “it sounded good out of the box, but after 100 hours of burn-in, wow, it really sucks now”…

Nice point, I will give you an example. When I first got SR225, I thought it sounded pretty similar to PS1 I head at the meet. As it burned in, it started to lose its PS1 merits

. Then again, eve though burn-in effect on dynamic drivers are easily measurable, the audible effects on burn-in is likely psychological.

Sometimes I wonder if audiophilia is a just a belief system, rather than the art and science of sound reproduction.

If so many "night and day" and "unbelievable" improvements have happened to someone's system, shouldn't it already be out-of-this-worldly good?

If hi-end cables transform so many modern systems left and right, should not have hi-fi systems sucked in th 60's because hi-end cables weren't popular yet?

Why do we even believe those audio magazine reviewers who don't provide any kind of credentials to suggest their competence and trustworthiness, and spend thousands of bucks based on their opinions?

Why have debates about certain issues turned into the crusades of believers and believe-nots, for instance double-blinded testing?

Why do so many people who don't even have half-decent relative pitch perception can hear "night and day" differences that even space-technology instruments can't measure and pin-point?

Anyhow, why should anyone believe audiophilia is a belief ssytem? Are you (Ferbose) crazy?

 

[Patrick82]

In my experience burn-in is a combination of the two, but the ears need it the most, perhaps as much as 90%.
I isolated my system from vibrations and it took 3 months to adjust to the faster new sound (there is no burn-in required of isolation feet), in the end it didn't sound any different but it sounded less fatiguing because there was better synergy with my ears.

I leave my system in stand-by 24/7. If I turn it off for a few hours and turn it back on it sounds brighter and takes a couple days to bring it back to sounding like before. If I turn it off for 24 hours it sounds horribly bright and takes a week until it sounds as warm as before.

P.S. Those new ICE Power amps (PS Audio, Bel Canto) supposedly takes hundreds of hours of burn-in, and if you turn it off you need to start all over again. PS Audio recommends to leave their amps in idle and not stand-by.

 

[JJ15k]

Welly, congratulations on this great post! I think mostly the same thing myself, but I would never have taken the time and dedication to lay it out as elegantly as you did.
This should be stickied

.
As for me, I would say I nearly bought into some of the cable hype, I bought some silver wire to make cables (hopefully this isn t 1/10 as expensive as a cable) and I certainly can t hear a difference when switching cables.
Other than that I may have spent more money than I should on components although all of it was "disposable". Now how am I going to pay for vacations?
Anyway, thanks for reminding everybody of the traps here

 

[Thaddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 In my experience...blah blah blah

Great post

Are you sure isolation feet don't need burning in?

 

[JJ15k]

Wow, I didn t see patrick's post as I was typing, I know that s none of my business, but you should reread the original post..........

 

[aerius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graz On burn-in… The interesting thing about the burn-in “myth” (if you’re inclined to call it that), is that it is almost universally assumed that all burn-in results in a positive improvement to the piece of gear being burned in. If burn-in is a phenomenon whereby the components within the device are “settling” in to their appropriate or target operating characteristics, it stands to reason that the end-result of this process would be negative just about as often as it is positive. I’ve yet to hear anyone post that “it sounded good out of the box, but after 100 hours of burn-in, wow, it really sucks now”…

I suggest doing a search of the early Senn 650 impressions threads from when they were first introduced. Quite a few people went from liking the sound to hating it. I'm honestly getting sick of how many times I have to debunk the "burn-in always makes things sound better" myth. This is probably the 4th or 5th time I've mentioned this exact fact and yet people still persist in believing the myth and repeating it as fact when it clearly isn't.

 

[Mastergill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferbose If hi-end cables transform so many modern systems left and right, should not have hi-fi systems sucked in th 60's because hi-end cables weren't popular yet?

Cables do not make night and day difference, they're good for 'polishing' a setup, the ice on the cake. Money should better be spend on very very good main audio equipement first and then you can use cables to extract the most 'musicality' from these very good audio gear.
Expensive cables should be the last thing you buy for your audio setup, when everything else is top-notch.

Quote:

Why do we even believe those audio magazine reviewers who don't provide any kind of credentials to suggest their competence and trustworthiness, and spend thousands of bucks based on their opinions?

Don't spend your money based on audio reviews. Listen first with your own ears. Use review only for comparison respect to your OWN impression. You will quickly realise there's a difference between experienced reviewer and just good writing skills.

Quote:

Why have debates about certain issues turned into the crusades of believers and believe-nots, for instance double-blinded testing?

Because some dudes believe all hearing are equal. Some people are certainly born with very good hearing skills, but it's also a training for most of us. Be exposed to better and better sound and you should be able to 'educate' your ears about small change which may be inaudible for a beginner. In the perfume industry people are trained to smell very tiny nuance that most of us would never perceive. There's some senses that can be developped with training, like hearing and smelling.

Quote:

Why do so many people who don't even have half-decent relative pitch perception can hear "night and day" differences that even space-technology instruments can't measure and pin-point?

Perfect pitch perception and 'audiophile ears' are two different things.

Now i feel sorry for the OP as it seems he fell into all 'audio trap' imaginable, but please don't dismiss 'audiophilia' as a whole because of some unfortunate experiences. Take your time and most important listen before you buy. Good gear cost a lot, there's no mystery about that, but a high price tag does not necessarily mean great sound. Again, take your time, learn to appreciate each upgrades. After some serious investment, each day you listen to your setup should be like the first day. You should not feel bored or with the urge to upgrade again.

BTW, strange, the first post seems to have disappeared...

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerius I suggest doing a search of the early Senn 650 impressions threads from when they were first introduced. Quite a few people went from liking the sound to hating it. I'm honestly getting sick of how many times I have to debunk the "burn-in always makes things sound better" myth. This is probably the 4th or 5th time I've mentioned this exact fact and yet people still persist in believing the myth and repeating it as fact when it clearly isn't.

A similar thing happened when I was using xStream Statement power cables, everytime when my system had been in stand-by for more than a week it sounded too warm and it was annoying. So in that case burn-in made it sound worse and I liked the sound of cold equipment better.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Thaddy Great post Are you sure isolation feet don't need burning in?

Actually it could with the feet I am using. I have noticed the rubber bands have stretched half mm after a couple months. I haven't heard a difference though.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Mastergill Cables do not make night and day difference, they're good for 'polishing' a setup, the ice on the cake. Money should better be spend on very very good main audio equipement first and then you can use cables to extract the most 'musicality' from these very good audio gear. Expensive cables should be the last thing you buy for your audio setup, when everything else is top-notch.

I have tested Valhalla cabling with a cheap system (DAC1 + T-Amp: $1000) and it sounded much better than high-end ($9000) with cheap cables. Better as in more detailed, neutral, bassy, dynamic, and not forgiving, "musical" and "romantic" that you get from muddy copper wiring. I guess it just depends on the persons taste or the music they listen to. BTW, my music is fast bass, dynamics and subtle details, it's the subtlety that IS the music to me. Most likely that's why I have learned to improve my ears to hear those differences between cables and that's why they sound night and day to me.

I think the number 1 mistake should be:

Mistake #1) Taking someone elses advice who has different tastes.

Everyone likes different food...

 

[Oistrakh]

mine is joining this forum

 

[Thaddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 Actually it could with the feet I am using. I have noticed the rubber bands have stretched half mm after a couple months. I haven't heard a difference though.

Are you serious? Did you actually listen to hear a diference in sound? You're insane dude, you have to be. I mean, I guess all of us are on this forum, but how would a .5mm change in height translate to a different sound?

 

[ameyer17]

1) too much gear, too little music
2) Shure e4g, just honestly wasn't that good
3) Buying my PA2V2 to try to make my purchase of the e4g justifiable, although that turned out OK
4) spending too much money
That's all I can think of