[sumone]

I'm always on a quest to find the difference between hi-fi and regular-fi excluding the price difference, which to me is the only REAL difference a fellow noob wannabe audiophile can see.

First it's 320kbs is better than 192kbs. To me: can't tell.

Then it's CD quality is better than 320kbs mp3; me: can't tell.

Then it's Vinyl is better than CD quality; me: can't tell.

Then it's tube amps are better than transistor amps; me: never heard a tube amp, but doubt I'd be able to tell.

Then it's Wire A sounds better/different than wire B; me: all I know is "Radioshack" quality wires and don't see how wire can make that big of a difference.


Then people say I can't tell differences because I don't have high-quality equipment that can reveal these differences....


So, since joining head-fi, per recommendations from this forum, my collection of (recommended) high-quality equipment are my Klipshe 2.1 ProMedia speakers, Sennheiser hd-280pro headphones, the portable 5-watt T-Amp, an Audio-Technica AT-PL120 turn table with (supplied) ATP-2 cartridge, and a Chaintech AV-710 sound card using the high-quality DAC that outputs on channels 7&8.

All in all, all I can say is: I still see no difference between hi-fi and regular-fi except price.

- The Klipsche Speakers ($180) probably don't sound as good as they can cause I have horrible acoustics in my room & probably horrible speaker-placement along with it.
- The Sennheiser hd-280pro headphones ($90) sound better than other headphones I've had, but they lack in midbass.
- The T-Amp ($30), I still don't have any (passive) speakers to connect it to.
- The AT-PL120 turntable ($200), I still have skipping problems & the noisefloor is high in my opinon.
- Chaintech AV-710 sound card ($30), only difference I can tell between it and my onboard soundcard is that it has a lower noisefloor.

So that's why I wanna know what was the first thing you've bought that actually made an obvious difference in sound?

 

[Jahn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumone I'm always on a quest to find the difference between hi-fi and regular-fi excluding the price difference, which to me is the only REAL difference a fellow noob wannabe audiophile can see. First it's 320kbs is better than 192kbs. To me: can't tell. Then it's CD quality is better than 320kbs mp3; me: can't tell. Then it's Vinyl is better than CD quality; me: can't tell. Then it's tube amps are better than transistor amps; me: never heard a tube amp, but doubt I'd be able to tell. So that's why I wanna know what was the first thing you've bought that actually made an obvious difference in sound?

The Alessandro MS-1. Kicked my Sony V300 in the GONADS.

BTW i feel the same way about the compression rates - 128AAC i can tell. 192AAC, hmm, toss up. 256 VBR? can't tell. 320 AAC? Nope. Sounds like a CD to me!

But GOOD vinyl, yeah, i can tell. And a tube amp sounds so much different than a solid state, it's not funny.

 

[fewtch]

Sennheiser HD-580 headphones. I had heard numerous cans up to that point, including Grado SR60s and HD280s. They all "sounded like headphones," although admittedly some sounded better than others. To my ears, the HD580s were a huge leap. They really took me by surprise, in a very big way. It was like an entirely new dimension of headphone listening that I hadn't suspected was possible.

Keep in mind most of the gains we get around here are in the last 10% or so, unless compared to utterly crappy consumer junk. If you keep that in mind, you won't be surprised by claims of stuff making a "huge" difference. Huge = 8%, moderate = 5%, good improvement = 3% and so on. Where cables are involved, you can cut those numbers at least in half.

 

[Wmcmanus]

For most people who are experiencing the very real dilemna that you're experiencing, my advice would be to start with the source. But then you need good amplification, good speakers/headphones, etc. If you still can't hear the differences on most of the 'high-fi' gear that you hear incrementally, then I'd suggest that you visit one of the major trade shows (CES of the like) or, better yet, a Head-Fi meet (since you're posting here, I'll assume that you like, or at least listen to, headphones).

Sometimes it takes a while to "train" your ears and like anything else, you can develop critical listening skills with practice. But to be honest, music itself may not matter enough to you to do so. And I don't mean this in a bad way at all. To some people, music isn't very important at all. To others, it's nice, and it helps them to pass time (i.e., as background music at work, etc.) and for others "Music is life" (one of Berris Hammond's albulms). Anyway, I'm sure you'll get a lot of great anwsers, but one possible question that you should consider is: how much does it mean to you? That is, what role does music play in your life? Are you passionate about it? If the honest answer is that you enjoy it but are not trerribly fussy about sound, then you're better off NOT getting into the "hi-fi" end of things in terms of gear. This will give you more money for purchasing recorded music (and other things) because once you get the "bug" with hihg-end systems it can become a slippery slope.

 

[romesaz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumone - The Klipsche Speakers ($180) probably don't sound as good as they can cause I have horrible acoustics in my room & probably horrible speaker-placement along with it. - The Sennheiser hd-280pro headphones ($90) sound better than other headphones I've had, but they lack in midbass. - The T-Amp ($30), I still don't have any (passive) speakers to connect it to. - The AT-PL120 turntable ($200), I still have skipping problems & the noisefloor is high in my opinon. - Chaintech AV-710 sound card ($30), only difference I can tell between it and my onboard soundcard is that it has a lower noisefloor.

But you just DID tell. imo, the moment you mention the 1st two, you're already considering the possible differences and how that'll affect the quality. already, you're noticing that your headphones may be lacking something. Now do a direct comparison between your old headphones, and the 280s? surely you can tell SOMETHING. Play around with the positioning of your speakers...you'll be able to tell something.

For me...hmm... Hearing my dad's DT-911's.

 

[tortie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumone So that's why I wanna know what was the first thing you've bought that actually made an obvious difference in sound?

The most obvious difference in sound I've experienced was by changing my source from an PC based SB Live soundcard to a Philips 963SA CDP.

 

[Kirosia]

source and a tube amp

 

[sumone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch To my ears, the HD580s were a huge leap. They really took me by surprise, in a very big way.

That's what I'm seeking...a huge leap / obvious difference in sound quality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus Anyway, I'm sure you'll get a lot of great anwsers, but one possible question that you should consider is: how much does it mean to you? That is, what role does music play in your life? Are you passionate about it? If the honest answer is that you enjoy it but are not trerribly fussy about sound, then you're better off NOT getting into the "hi-fi" end of things in terms of gear.

I just want to be able to replicate music like the artist intended...I don't just want to "hear" it. I want to hear it like the artist hears it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by romesaz But you just DID tell. imo, the moment you mention the 1st two, you're already considering the possible differences and how that'll affect the quality. already, you're noticing that your headphones may be lacking something. Now do a direct comparison between your old headphones, and the 280s? surely you can tell SOMETHING. Play around with the positioning of your speakers...you'll be able to tell something.

But to me, these "differences" don't qualify as hi-fi differences (if that phrase exists?) I've played with positioning a lot & it just seems each new place, it gets worse, or there is no difference. If I don't have the speakers at about chin-height (cause the speakers point upwards), I lose treble & Midrange. Bass is boomy even when I have the subwoofer level low. And what is a DT-11 and what were you comparing it to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tortie The most obvious difference in sound I've experienced was by changing my source from an PC based SB Live soundcard to a Philips 963SA CDP.

What was the difference?

 

[kramer5150]

The HD280 is the flattest can I have heard. Flat to the point of being boring IMHO, except for maybe a little treble boost. IMHO the HF1 MDRV6 or DT770 would be polar opposite to the HD280.... without going hog wild with the $$$.

I'm kind of like you though. I guess it takes a LOT to really WOW me. I'm sitting here happily grooving to some dire straits on my $7 sportapro, amped with a $45 little DOT Micro. While My Millet hybrid and MS2/HF1/K240s sit idle watching.

While I can hear differences between 128 and 320 MP3, I can listen to each and enjoy each equally... as long as its a groovy tune thats all I need.

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumone I just want to be able to replicate music like the artist intended...I don't just want to "hear" it. I want to hear it like the artist hears it.

It sounds like you have the right idea, though I'd suggest using live, unamplified performances as the benchmark. The goal of hi-fi is to get as close to reproducing that sound as possible. If you go to the symphony, for instance, then come home and listen to a recording of that symphony and honestly can't discern a difference (or find that the difference is not important to you), then you're already at a good enough place and you should forget about trying new gear.

Not everyone cares about sonic differences to the same extent. It's like fine wines. I can't tell the difference between a wine from a "good year" and from a "poor year", and I don't care enough about it to try to train myself to discern those differences. That's fine. Many of us can easily tell the difference between many of the things you've listed. If you can't, don't worry about it.

For most of us, it's not about money either. That Chaintech card you own is preferred by many around here over the Audigy 2 Platinum Pro EX at more than ten times its price. Most people prefer the sound of the cheap iPod Shuffle to the more expensive iPods. I personally prefer the lowly Koss KSC-35 to every Grado headphone I've heard regardless of price, and to every Sennheiser headphone below the HD580.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumone That's what I'm seeking...a huge leap / obvious difference in sound quality.

Pick up a pair of HD580s. You may or may not like what you hear, but if you didn't consider it a huge/obvious difference from the way most headphones represent music, I'd be surprised.

 

[blip]

Well I've had several of these experiences which have continually redefined my audiophile experience.

First things first, my HD 525s. While these cans, deservedly, don't have the reputation of their bigger and better brothers, they absolutely blew me away as a teenager. I picked them up after listening to a raft of similarly priced Sony etc. headphones and I was simply floored by how different they sounded. To me, now, they represent the absolute bottom floor of acceptable sound-quality but they still hold a home in my heart. (i.e. it makes me very happy that my father still uses them!)

Following that my HD 580s. These cans are the entrance point of many of us into the world of true audiophilia (I actually dislike the term hi-fi... I'll explain later). These phones were an incredible step over the 525s in terms of detail and soundstage. The difference was certainly not subtle... Even my grandmother could hear the difference between it and the 525s! Arguably they were my true conversion experience to audiophilia.... though honestly, the supporting cast of gear I had back then didn't begin to do these cans justice.

Finally my most recent system build (see my sig) was the first time that I had a good wad of cash to spend on audio equipment. This opened up possibilities that I didn't know existed! After a few months of listening to systems with components in the $500-1000 range, I discovered a new layer of possibilities... A new era of detail and spaciousness and character. Thus I "advanced" so to speak from the realm of budget audiophilia to the realm of slightly bigger budget audiophilia. (It is disturbing that $500 components are often considered budget equipment in out hobby

)

Anyway, that's my story.

Now on to yours:
Some people never undergo a true conversion, and that is just fine. Audiophilia isn't for everyone... in fact it isn't for most people... even those that love music.

But let me give you some advice before you throw your hands up in despair and leave audiophilia forever. Find a local audiophile store with a somewhat relaxed atmosphere (heck, in a pinch even a magnolia hi-fi style place will do... ). Go in and audition the most expensive equipment that you could see yourself buying in the next 5-10 years or so (the $500/component range is decent though if you are listening to speakers allow a litte extra for them say $1000 or so). Listen to it closely... maybe bring a CD or two of your own for the audition. If you aren't blown away... if you still say so what, then maybe audiophilia simply isn't for you.... but if you are like most people I know who have done this, your faith will be restored.

Edit: Forgot to say why I hate the term Hi-Fi. To me the term Hi-Fi brings to mind a very specific system character. Basically I imagine a system that sounds very bright but has an exaggerated, undefined low end. This, to me, characterizes the sound of a lot of equipment that is sold to consumers as being Hi-Fi... or, in other words, as being a step above the most common equipment.

Edit 2: Compression rates are a pretty sticky wicket in the community with little consensus from audiophile to audiophile about how high a bit rate is enough... Let alone which format is best For me, 128 is generally discernable from 192 or higher. 192 is sometimes discernable from 256 but not reliably. 256 is rarely discernable from uncompressed. Anyway, my theory is that since MP3s rely on psychoacoustics, each individual's specific neurological wiring determines what bit-rate is acceptable.

However, once if I burn the MP3s to a CD and play them on my Arcam (or to a much lesser extent my Tjoeb) the differences become much clearer. 128 becomes irritating. 192 is acceptable. 256 is where the compression is no longer obvious during critical listening. These differences I think are more obvious and generalizeable.

 

[socrates63]

The biggest wow experience for me was when I amped my iRiver flash player with a cmoy. The sound just came alive. My benchmark has always been a Kenwood speaker system that my dad bought about twenty years ago (has it been that long??). There's been no looking back since the experience with the cmoy.

For me, as long as I can tell the difference in sound and it gets closer to my memory of that Kenwood system, I get excited. The difference between equipment X and Y may not be huge and just incremental, but that's probably good enough for me.

My most recent experiences came with the HD650 that I bought last week and the Micro DAC. They given me a definitely different aural experience than what I've experienced previously.

 

[tortie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumone What was the difference?

EVERYTHING! Clearer and crisper highs, extended yet tighter lows, voices and instruments seem to come to life, absence of background noise (I didnt notice it was there until it was gone), and a whole lot more!

With the new source, the differences between cans are now easier to spot, the qualities of a better amp is now greatly appreciated, and looking for quality recorded CDs now make sense as defects on the source materials recording are now noticed.

 

[hentai]

I listened to the pink floyd 's another brick in the wall pt2 . The part where many kids singing the chorus. With the grado sr60 , it sounded like a few kids singing. Then i put on sr225 , this time alot more kids singing. Finally rs-1 you could picture a class of students singing.