you cannot trust your eyes, so why trust your ears?

[Bullseye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's your preferred method. Not everyone accepts the assumptions inherent in your decision to favor that method, and not everyone wants to spend the time to conduct a blind test every time they must decide between component A and B (and we're not just talking about cables, the typical "whipping boy"). Feel free to conduct all the blind tests you want. Me, I will generally (but not exclusively) trust my ears, and will continue to suggest that others do the same.

Exactly. That is why other people who have had the time, equipment and knowledge have decided to do so. So that other people don't need to do them by themselves.

Then it might be "my" preferred method, and you can have yours trusting your ears. But yours will be biased and not very trustworthy, whilst mine will have more things controlled and will leave less space for errors to happen. Being one of the most important ones volume matching.

Quote:

I'll agree with the double-blind part, but I don't think using a switch is a proper method to test differences in cables.

We can back to the same... You think it is not necessary. I tell you it is needed due to our mental capacity to remember a sound, you disagree and back to the start...

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif Exactly. That is why other people who have had the time, equipment and knowledge have decided to do so. So that other people don't need to do them by themselves. Then it might be "my" preferred method, and you can have yours trusting your ears. But yours will be biased and not very trustworthy, whilst mine will have more things controlled and will leave less space for errors to happen. Being one of the most important ones volume matching. We can back to the same... You think it is not necessary. I tell you it is needed due to our mental capacity to remember a sound, you disagree and back to the start.

With all due respect, these types of statements sound a bit presumptuous, as if your method is the only correct one.

My "method" makes assumptions about my ability to control biases without blind testing -- and some of these assumptions may be faulty. And your method makes assumptions about the reliability of blind tests, which are far from perfect -- and hence, some of your assumptions may be faulty.

I respect your right to do it your way. But I don't fully trust your method, and I don't like the intimation that your method is utilized by you and others to help us more ignorant folks.

If we really focus on the issue that was raised at the beginning of this thread, I think the issue at hand is whether, in determining what sounds best to me and please my senses the most, I should trust my ears, or should trust what you and other people who I don't know say happened in tests that were conducted by people I don't know, with other equipment I don't own, and under circumstances I could not observe, and under conditions that don't match my listening conditions. In choosing between these two options, I think it is reasonable for me to trust my ears.

Again, there's really three imperfect choices: (1) trust your own ears with inherent biases, (2) trust someone else you don't know (and who knows what their biases might be), or (3) conduct your own blind test, with all the associated transactional costs. It's not unreasonable at all in many circumstance to choose option 1, or to advise others that this is a reasonable choice.

P.S. Here's something else to think about: why it is problematic that a method is biased, if I have the bias, and the issue is what pleases me?

 

[Bullseye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif With all due respect, these types of statements sound a bit presumptuous, as if your opinion is the only correct one. My "method" makes assumptions about my ability to control biases without blind testing -- and some of these assumptions may be faulty. And your method makes assumptions about the reliability of blind tests, which are far from perfect -- and hence, some of your assumptions may be faulty. I respect your right to do it your way. But I don't fully trust your method, and I find somewhat distasteful your intimation that your method is utilized by you and others to help us more ignorant folks. If we really focus on the issue that was raised at the beginning of this thread, I think the issue at hand is whether, in determining what sounds best to me and please my senses the most, I should trust my ears, or should trust what you and other people who I don't know say happened in tests that were conducted by people I don't know, with other equipment I don't own, and under circumstances I could not observe, and under conditions that don't match my listening conditions. In choosing between these two options, I think it is reasonable for me to trust my ears. P.S. Here's something else to think about: why it is problematic that a method is biased, if I have the bias, and the issue is what pleases me?

That is exactly what you are trying to make other people believe. Your impressions on different pieces of equipment with absolutely no information on how you did it (to do a proper comparison, that is). When a DBT is made they tell you how it was done. Matching levels, using an ABX switch, covering the equipment, throwing coins to determine what goes when in the test. And the subjects are trying to find out differences (that should be obvious, no?) between different pieces of equipment without knowing this is A or B and having preconceptions about them.

You, on the contrary are testing cable brand A costing X vs Cable brand B costing Y, using the volume you feel like using, trying to match your opinions with other people's opinions, as I basically doubt you bought one cable without reading about how people liked it or not... You are relying on likings or on other things like aesthetics/price to tell you what "should be" better. With the DBT you are trying to avoid that. And only use your ears! Not your eyes or your wallet.

SO, if you look at it in one way, using your ears is more present in a DBT than in your own tests.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is exactly what you are trying to make other people believe. Your impressions on different pieces of equipment with absolutely no information on how you did it.

I think you've departed from the original topic. The issue was whether it was reasonable for people to "trust their own ears." I'm not arguing that people should trust someone else's ears. Indeed, I keep pointing out that this is indeed a problematic choice, vs. trusting one's own ears.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif You are relying on likings or on other things like aesthetics/price to tell you what "should be" better.

Again, the presumptuousness. You don't have any idea what I'm "relying on" or what is influencing me.

 

[Bullseye]

^Oh well, you are not directly relying on those aspects of the equipment you are comparing, but indireclty there is some influence on that on the choice for what is better for you.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif ^Oh well, you are not directly relying on those aspects of the equipment you are comparing, but indireclty there is some influence on that on the choice for what is better for you.

Fascinating. How do you know this? On the one hand, in the context of comparing components, you insist on scientific testing with every variable controlled to determine the presence or absence of certain phenomena, yet on the other hand, you're willing to rampantly speculate about what phenomena influence me in my choices, a person you have never met and really know nothing about.

I guess the scientific approach and factually-based conclusions are only preferred when they support your specific agenda.

P.S. And you've yet to explain why I should be concerned about my alleged biases when the issue is what pleases me or my ears.

 

[mike1127]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is exactly what you are trying to make other people believe. Your impressions on different pieces of equipment with absolutely no information on how you did it (to do a proper comparison, that is). ...

It's your mindset that says testing is about trying to prove something to other people. For a lot of us, it's about proving something to ourselves, first and foremost.

 

[Bullseye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Fascinating. How do you know this? On the one hand, in the context of comparing components, you insist on scientific testing with every variable controlled to determine the presence or absence of certain phenomena, yet on the other hand, you're willing to rampantly speculate about what phenomena influence me in my choices, a person you have never met and really know nothing about. I guess the scientific approach and factually-based conclusions are only preferred when they support your specific agenda.

Well you actually ask yourself how do I know so? Pretty simple, it has to do with your type of responses. You have been given enough information that tells you there is no audible change when using different cables (well built, etc), you have been shown that it is very easy to fool one's ears, by either placebo, prices, aesthetics, etc. You say you prefer to trust your ears after all of that. And as this thread is "you can't trust your ears...", I try to explain -by speculating- why you hear what you hear.

Why do i expeculate? Because as you say you trust your ears there are tons of aspects that can change your perception in thinking one piece of equipment is better than other.

To cut to the chase, you are trying to deny my take on DBT by using something as subjective as your ears, because you trust more those than any test anyone can make or what some data shows you (measured by equipment way more precise than yours or my ears). If no matter what I say in the scientific way, you are going to get back to using your ears I have to go back to the subjective side of the story and speculate in what things might make you think that way.

I hope you understand my take now. Sorry but right now I feel tired and thinking in english (not my mother language) gets a bit tough

 

[Bullseye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike1127 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's your mindset that says testing is about trying to prove something to other people. For a lot of us, it's about proving something to ourselves, first and foremost.

I wouldn't be rebating what other people say if they stopped saying it without anything to back up their impressions than their own experience.

What is the bad made when someone says this cable that costs $xxx and sounds excellent? That people who don't understand or know might think that that is actually the case. Then they might find themselves trying to save up for a piece of cable that will bring them absolutely nothing but placebo and the need to justify that purchase.

Then there will also be the MOTs who will try to keep winning money and will come here saying that "it is ture, there are differences", and be giving any type of excuse, from " lack of synergy", going through "your equipment is not good enough" till "the problem is you ears, that you are deaf whilst i am a golden ears" and the feeling of the other of "I don't want to be tin-eared, there must be a difference..."

So what is the best excuse for everyone to forget about that? the mythical phrase everyone uses: "If you can hear it then it is good for you".

But when you say when you "hear it" you are actually looking at it, seeing how nice it looks in your equipment, how cool the cable is.

And the problem comes when you try to really use your ears (proper DBT aka comparison), that you don't hear those SQ changes you previously heard, you don't accept the fact you spent money -a lot- on something that doesn't give or take anything, and that can be replaced by any well built cable costing very little.

That is the reason why I bother arguing with other people that keep wanting to believe. So that other people don't waste their money on something that it is just good looking, whilst fooling themselves in order to justify it.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well you actually ask yourself how do I know so? Pretty simple, it has to do with your type of responses. You have been given enough information that tells you there is no audible change when using different cables (well built, etc), you have been shown that it is very easy to fool one's ears, by either placebo, prices, aesthetics, etc.

Why are you always talking about cables? Let's not confine ourselves to that. Let's talk about components in general, including CD players and DAC's. So the issue becomes, when someone else tells me that no DBT has ever proven that DAC's sound different, should I accept that or can I "trust my own ears" if they lead me to a different conclusion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif To cut to the chase, you are trying to deny my take on DBT by using something as subjective as your ears . . . ,

I'm not trying to tell you what to do or what to believe. If you want to use a DBT to make your choices, go ahead. I'm just saying that it is reasonable for me to trust my ears, and reasonable for me to tell others to consider trusting their own ears, as opposed to insisting that nobody can make a reasonable choice relating to audio components without conducting a formal DBT.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif What is the bad made when someone says this cable that costs $xxx and sounds excellent? That people who don't understand or know might think that that is actually the case. Then they might find themselves trying to save up for a piece of cable that will bring them absolutely nothing but placebo and the need to justify that purchase. * * * That is the reason why I bother arguing with other people that keep wanting to believe. So that other people don't waste their money on something that it is just good looking, whilst fooling themselves in order to justify it.

Yes, you guys are trying to save others from themselves, because you know better. It's a bit paternalistic, arrogant, and presumptuous. Let others do what they want. If they make a bad choice, they'll learn and do better next time.

 

[Bilavideo]

But I just saved 15% on my car insurance.

 

[dvw]

Isn't it the point of DBT trusting your ears instead of your eyes?
I don't really understand why the argument against DBT. If the DBT result is debatable, then I think it's up to the individual choice to decide he is going pay extra for something that he can't tell the difference with DBT.
Personally, I don't think I am going to.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvw /img/forum/go_quote.gif Isn't it the point of DBT trusting your ears instead of your eyes?

Not really. IMO, most of the time when people are suggesting that you trust a DBT instead of your own ears, they are suggesting that you trust DBT results that are reported by others.

Of course, if you conduct a DBT yourself, and you believe the conditions under which you conducted the test are satisfactory, it makes sense to trust what your ears heard during the DBT over what your ears heard during a sighted test. But the problem is that there are "transactional costs" (for lack of a better word) associated with conducting a proper DBT. So people may not want to conduct a DBT on many occasions for that reason.

And sometimes, people feel the differences between the components at issue are of such a magnitude that a DBT is not necessary. For example, there are quite a few posts in the Full-Size Headphones forum regarding the differences in sound between the Senn HD-800 and the HD-650, or the AKG K-701. I am pretty sure that these observations are the product of sighted tests, and yet nobody is suggesting that they are not valid because they are sighted.

Thus, when people say that they are trusting their own ears, I take it to mean that they have heard differences between components, and they do not believe that it is necessary under the circumstances to conduct a DBT for them to be satisfied that there are differences. Alternatively, they may be saying that they are convinced of what they heard, and they value their own judgment over someone else's reference to a DBT posted on the internet.

I submit that this conclusion is entirely reasonable, and your decision that you want to conduct a DBT is reasonable also. The problem we have on this forum is that people like to suggest to other people that they are fools because they don't choose to employ the scientific method when they are trying to figure out what is best for them.

 

[bribassguy]

You brain lies to you... it works with all the senses... check out Beatsystem's "Endlessly downward"


umm or this video... YouTube - Unbelievable Magic Sound Illusion! Video