[PhilS]

So (to return somewhat to the original topic) when should you trust your ears, and when should you not trust your ears?

 

[royalcrown]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif So (to return somewhat to the original topic) when should you trust your ears, and when should you not trust your ears?

Speaking for myself, if the objective measurements tell you that two components measure very similarly/identically, trust only your ears in isolation, by means of blinding. If, once blinded, you cannot hear a difference, then no matter what your "ears" tell you, there's no difference there. If two components measure reasonably differently, trust your ears, but only in isolation through blinding. If two components measure wildly differently, there's a high chance that anyone can distinguish a difference blind, so doing so would be superfluous.

In any case, the objective data comes first: in the original post, the two colors are the same. This is the case no matter how different they look.

For a clearer example see: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse....lon_fraud3.gif

This is an instance where you shouldn't trust your eyes: the colors are exactly the same, no matter how much you tell yourself you can tell them apart. If they were randomized and put in a quiz form, you would fail - i.e. once your knowledge of which shade is which is blinded, the differences no longer appear to be there (I'm using the generic you btw). In this case, you can't trust your eyes. In cases where you cannot distinguish between two piece of music in quiz form, you cannot trust your ears.

 

[ph0rk]

An "Enquiring Mind" that ignores the body of work by other individuals asking similar (or the same) questions for decades is really more of a "Stubborn/Ignorant Mind". Unmeasurable (or very hard to measure without mechanical assistance) properties of cables affecting huge changes in the listening experience is not parsimonious, and requires both explanation and evidence.

Scientific inquiry is not the path to truth, but it is the best known path to reducing error.

Given the levels of science literacy in the US these days, I suppose one shouldn't be too surprised at lack of trust in what remains an agenda-free method. (It is those that apply it that have the agendas).

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by royalcrown /img/forum/go_quote.gif Speaking for myself, if the objective measurements tell you that two components measure very similarly/identically, trust only your ears in isolation, by means of blinding.

Where do the objective measurements come from? Is there a website that has all the objective measurements regarding DAC's and CD players that are currently on the market, for example? Or do people get them from somewhere else? And speaking of objective measurements, what should one be looking at in terms of DAC's and CD players?

As you can see, I'm interested in the practical aspects of this issue.

 

[mike1127]

Quote:

Originally Posted by royalcrown /img/forum/go_quote.gif e case no matter how different they look. For a clearer example see: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse....lon_fraud3.gif This is an instance where you shouldn't trust your eyes: the colors are exactly the same, no matter how much you tell yourself you can tell them apart. If they were randomized and put in a quiz form, you would fail - i.e. once your knowledge of which shade is which is blinded, the differences no longer appear to be there (I'm using the generic you btw).

The colors on that web page are different. They have different RGB values. They also appear quite different on my monitor. You might want to come up with a better example.

However, your basic point is that if theory and experiment with the eye's perception of colors indicates that we can't tell two apart, then we shouldn't expect to pass a blind test.

Note the "if": if theory and experiment indicate this. And if this theory and these experiments are valid.

I have my doubts about the prevailing theory and experiment associated with audio.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph0rk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Given the levels of science literacy in the US these days, I suppose one shouldn't be too surprised at lack of trust in what remains an agenda-free method. (It is those that apply it that have the agendas).

Scientists don't have agendas? Oh, please. They're people too, you know -- or so I've heard.

 

[ph0rk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Where do the objective measurements come from? Is there a website that has all the objective measurements regarding DAC's and CD players that are currently on the market, for example? Or do people get them from somewhere else? And speaking of objective measurements, what should one be looking at in terms of DAC's and CD players? As you can see, I'm interested in the practical aspect of this issue.

Latest News. Audio Rightmark

Most anyone that wants to can compare things like cables a good deal more objectively than by listening to them.

 

[ph0rk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Scientists don't have agendas? Oh, please. They're people too, you know -- or so I've heard.

Please reread the lines you quoted.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph0rk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Latest News. Audio Rightmark Most anyone that wants to can compare things like cables a good deal more objectively than by listening to them.

I'm not talking about cables. And I don't want to talk about cables. It's too much of a lightning rod for dogmatic and inflammatory points of view by both sides. I'd like to talk about DAC's, or amps, instead. The same issue, i.e., when do you trust your ears, would seem to apply.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph0rk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please reread the lines you quoted.

Woops, I read it too fast. Or maybe, I should say, "I know you said that, I was just emphasizing your point."

 

[ph0rk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not talking about cables. And I don't want to talk about cables. It's too much of a lightning rod for dogmatic and inflammatory points of view by both sides. I'd like to talk about DAC's, or amps, instead. The same issue, i.e., when do you trust your ears, would seem to apply.

And you can RMAA dacs and amps just as easily as cables, if you wish to.

In fact AMB posts RMAA results for each of his designs, and others have done so for various pieces of consumer gear. There are some minor niggles with relying solely on the RMAA results of others, but when they are so easy to reproduce at home it is a nonissue.

This is of course a specific response to your question here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Where do the objective measurements come from? Is there a website that has all the objective measurements regarding DAC's and CD players that are currently on the market, for example? Or do people get them from somewhere else? And speaking of objective measurements, what should one be looking at in terms of DAC's and CD players? As you can see, I'm interested in the practical aspects of this issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Woops, I read it too fast. Or maybe, I should say, "I know you said that, I was just emphasizing your point."

I assumed as much, and left the flamethrower switched off

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph0rk /img/forum/go_quote.gif And you can RMAA dacs and amps just as easily as cables, if you wish to. In fact AMB posts RMAA results for each of his designs, and others have done so for various pieces of consumer gear. There are some minor niggles with relying solely on the RMAA results of others, but when they are so easy to reproduce at home it is a nonissue.

I'm not that familiar with RMAA, and (no offense meant) your response really doesn't enable anyone to further help me with my question, unless they know what RMAA does and what measurements they provide, and what measurements are arguably relevant to our issue (and can take your lead and run with it, so to speak). Could you ( or anyone else who thinks one should not trust his or her ears) elaborate as to what measurements are allegedly relevant to comparing two DAC's or CD players? Also, what type of measurements are you referencing that are easy to produce at home?

 

[royalcrown]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike1127 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The colors on that web page are different. They have different RGB values. They also appear quite different on my monitor. You might want to come up with a better example.

Yes they have different RGB values, but at a level that cannot be resolved by the human eye. Perceptually, it's impossible to tell the difference between the two images. This is a biological limitation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike1127 /img/forum/go_quote.gif However, your basic point is that if theory and experiment with the eye's perception of colors indicates that we can't tell two apart, then we shouldn't expect to pass a blind test.

There's no theory involved. The empirical content of the testings shows that the human eye cannot resolve between images with such similarity. A scientific theory is a plausible general principle used to explain a phenomenon. I am simply pointing out the phenomenon (that nobody can differentiate between the two images).


Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Where do the objective measurements come from? Is there a website that has all the objective measurements regarding DAC's and CD players that are currently on the market, for example? Or do people get them from somewhere else? And speaking of objective measurements, what should one be looking at in terms of DAC's and CD players? As you can see, I'm interested in the practical aspects of this issue.

ph0rk answered that for me, but yes - RMAA tests are all over the internet, and can be performed very simply at home for a minimum of expense (or even for free depending on the test performed). I have RMAA tests for my own DAC (EMU 0404 PCI), and all of the parameters are well, WELL below audible limits:

RightMark Audio Analyzer test : [MME] E-DSP Wave [EC00]

and this is supposedly the "inferior" version of the EMU 0404 USB, when the testing shows:

RightMark Audio Analyzer test : E-MU 0404 USB loopback bal 16b 44k

They measure the same, and blind testing confirms that they sound exactly the same. Another case of one device being thought of as better when they perform exactly the same.

 

[royalcrown]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not that familiar with RMAA, and (no offense meant) your response really doesn't enable anyone to further help me with my question, unless they know what RMAA does and what measurements they provide, and what measurements are arguably relevant to our issue (and can take your lead and run with it, so to speak). Could you ( or anyone else who thinks one should not trust his or her ears) elaborate as to what measurements are allegedly relevant to comparing two DAC's or CD players? Also, what type of measurements are you referencing that are easy to produce at home?

RMAA is a software that's downloadable for free. You can use this software to test your components. It's all outlined in the user manual that comes with the software, I suggest giving it a read. If you want to find tests on the internet, usually "xxxxx rmaa" will bring up results. A lot of components are tested, mainly DACs but even some headphone amps. Here's one site with a lot of measurements:

RMAA Results

Headphone amps are tested at the bottom. As for what's relevant, it's all in the report that you get from the software. It even gives you an assessment (poor, good, excellent, etc).

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by royalcrown /img/forum/go_quote.gif RMAA is a software that's downloadable for free. You can use this software to test your components. It's all outlined in the user manual that comes with the software, I suggest giving it a read. If you want to find tests on the internet, usually "xxxxx rmaa" will bring up results. A lot of components are tested, mainly DACs but even some headphone amps. Here's one site with a lot of measurements: RMAA Results Headphone amps are tested at the bottom. As for what's relevant, it's all in the report that you get from the software. It even gives you an assessment (poor, good, excellent, etc).

Ok, so if one were to download the software, and the RMAA measurements indicate that the differences are supposedly below the "audible limits," but one's ears indicate that one DAC (the one that costs $500 more) sounds better than the other, should one choose the DAC that seems to sound better, or instead pick the cheaper one, because the measurements, in conjunction with what you and others may say about "audible limits," indicate that both should sound the same?