Yggdrasil: A (P)review - Two days of paradise

[bfreedma]

   
Some reviewers swear by the sound quality improvement brought about optimizing services:
 
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/fidelizer_e.html

Some writers don't supply any technical measurements to support their claims.  The link you presented is also to someone who wants to sell you an unnecessary add on to an unnecessary configuration - not exactly impartial.  I've seen that site and those claims before - they are ridiculous unless your running 15 year old hardware
I gave that a quick read - talking about interrupts impacting streaming processing?  In 2015?  Seriously?
 
The sad part is, everything people believe can be accomplished using Server Core can largely be accomplished in a Workstation OS by setting processing priorities, stopping "unnecessary" services, and assigning your playback stream to have exclusive use of as many CPU cores as you care to.
 
Until someone comes forward with hard data, all the hand waving in the world doesn't prove what is being claimed.

 

[prot]

Sorry, but no it doesn't.  This is just another audiophile wild goose hunt in search of a placebo.

And before you accuse me of being a shill, I've done it and blind tested it under reasonably controlled conditions.  I also have 3 decades of experience with MS operating systems and at one time held every cert imaginable from MS. My org is also an MS partner, so I have access to the operating systems at no cost, so I'm not saving any money avoiding Server OS.  Not stating that to brag, just to avoid the same accusations you made above.

Unless you're running on hardware more than a decade old that simply can't handle the basic background processing of the OS, turning off random services is not going to improve audio.  Mutlipthreading operating systems long ago dealt with operational priority and modern hardware streams without breaking a sweat.  Every look at your CPU utilization at the process level on a PC while you stream audio?  Do you even hit 5% CPU utilization?

I'd be open to the possibility if anyone can show the improvement running Server in Core mode using hard data.  To date, hasn't happened.

+1 from someone with a similar background ... more years of IT than I would like to admit

Also tried all those software "optimizations": jplay, fidelizer, ao .. and many others. All I gained was a dubious amount of "experience". They *may* work with some older PCs or specific hardware or on machines that are completely bloated with useless software that hogs the cpu and various other resources. They did nada on mine.

To be fair, I do keep my PCs very lean (disable unused services etc). I cant say that any of that has an audible effect, though. It's just something I do with all my PCs since win3.1. And the whole thing is less and less useful with new hardware and OSes. It was very easy to see the effects on old win95 pc-s, not so much on my 2014 laptop.

P.S.
we already went quite offtopic here ... but since there are no iggy news, I guess any subject is fair game ... even useless ones

 

[fastfourier]

   
Well have you done it or are you just wasting people's time with your undocumented assumptions about things you clearly have no clue about ? 
 
I have done it and I can tell people it's definitely worth it and much smarter than spending $$$ on product (Microsoft gives free Student licenses to 2012 server btw......0 dollars). Core mode only equals to jumping from a mediocre DAC to a decent one. 
 
You sound just like a manufacturer who pushes people to buy more product rather than doing smart and cheap tweaks to fully leverage their gear. 

Please don't turn this into a personal attack, I don't respond to those and it is not conducive to your argument.
 
You made the assertion that there is a difference. I'll help you out by giving you a way to prove it empirically.
 
Take your Windows Server OS that you have installed on hand. Use an SHA or similar hashing algorithm on any Windows DLLs you feel might be responsible for this audible change. Then compare it to the most equivalent release of consumer Windows (Windows 8 = Windows Server 2012 R1, Windows 8.1 = Windows Server 2012 R2). Post the hash comparison and then you'll really have a solid argument.
 
If the evidence doesn't shake out, well you know what that means. But hey, experimentation is half the fun, right? You learn things, and you move on to bigger and better.
 
With that, I think we can leave that topic closed and move on.

 

[ciphercomplete]

   
Sorry, but no it doesn't.  This is just another audiophile wild goose hunt in search of a placebo.
 
And before you accuse me of being a shill, I've done it and blind tested it under reasonably controlled conditions.  I also have 3 decades of experience with MS operating systems and at one time held every cert imaginable from MS. My org is also an MS partner, so I have access to the operating systems at no cost, so I'm not saving any money avoiding Server OS.  Not stating that to brag, just to avoid the same accusations you made above.
 
Unless you're running on hardware more than a decade old that simply can't handle the basic background processing of the OS, turning off random services is not going to improve audio.  Mutlipthreading operating systems long ago dealt with operational priority and modern hardware streams without breaking a sweat.  Every look at your CPU utilization at the process level on a PC while you stream audio?  Do you even hit 5% CPU utilization?
 
I'd be open to the possibility if anyone can show the improvement running Server in Core mode using hard data.  To date, hasn't happened.

 
This has been my experience.  I don't have quite the background as yours since I graduated with  a computer science degree the year the tech bubble burst and have only held two IT /programming jobs since (now I'm a lawyer lol).  I tried Fidelizer and didn't hear a difference plus I was turned off by it changing my homepage in IE without asking (didnt know if what else it might have done).  I went in and turned off all the services and startup programs I could and still never heard a difference.   The thing is that even fresh out the box Windows 8.1 with only J River running my cpu usage never got above 3% and I have a ton of memory that will never get used so in my heart of hearts I knew turning off a bunch of services at that point wouldn't make a difference.  Sometimes my audiophile side overrides my rational side.   
 
One would think that if rationale for using Server OS instead of consumer Windows was really true then Linux would be king.  I tried Linux (various playback programs including J River for Linux) and it sounds the sames as Windows 8.1 running J River.  I did love playing around in Linux for the first time in years though

 

[prot]

..  Sometimes my audiophile side overrides my rational side.   

Hate to admit but that happens to me quite often too. Wish it was possible to get back all the time I lost trying those "optimizations".

One would think that if Server OS was really better then Linux would be king.  I tried Linux (various playback programs including J River for Linux) and it sounds the sames as Windows 8.1 running J River.  I did love playing around in Linux for the first time in years though

Especially a realtime linux kernel should in theory be much better. But the hardware is so good and fast nowadays that it prolly doesnt matter. The OSes are also highly optimized, both win and linux already went through 20+ years of constant improvements. It's hard to think that something as simple as audio playback can be so easily improved by some random dude.

Btw, you did an interesting career change. Would you say that lawyering is much more satisfying that programming? Or it just pays better ?

 

[bfreedma]

Hate to admit but that happens to me quite often too. Wish it was possible to get back all the time I lost trying those "optimizations".
Especially a realtime linux kernel should in theory be much better. But the hardware is so good and fast nowadays that it prolly doesnt matter. The OSes are also highly optimized, both win and linux already went through 20+ years of constant improvements. It's hard to think that something as simple as audio playback can be so easily improved by some random dude.

Btw, you did an interesting career change. Would you say that lawyering is much more satisfying that programming? Or it just pays better ?

 
Having run an IT shop in a law firm a while ago, I bet he has better work stories than we do

.
 
Would this be a good time to mention that anyone purchasing the Student version of Windows Server to use as a streaming PC OS rather than as a platform to further their IT education is violating their software agreement?

  Not that I care, but something to be aware of.

 

[ciphercomplete]

For me programming is alot more fun and fulfilling but I think it depends on what type of person you are.  I do have interesting stories though

.  The one good thing about the switch is that each year less and less people remember that I can fix their computers.

 

[Music Alchemist]

I thought the consensus around here was that jplay was a useless piece of code that noone needs on a modern pc. The trial version certainly did not change a single audible bit for me.
And btw, when a particular piece of software does not work with a generic, standard Usb driver, it's most prolly not the driver's fault.

  Sorry, but no it doesn't.  This is just another audiophile wild goose hunt in search of a placebo.
 
And before you accuse me of being a shill, I've done it and blind tested it under reasonably controlled conditions.  I also have 3 decades of experience with MS operating systems and at one time held every cert imaginable from MS. My org is also an MS partner, so I have access to the operating systems at no cost, so I'm not saving any money avoiding Server OS.  Not stating that to brag, just to avoid the same accusations you made above.
 
Unless you're running on hardware more than a decade old that simply can't handle the basic background processing of the OS, turning off random services is not going to improve audio.  Mutlipthreading operating systems long ago dealt with operational priority and modern hardware streams without breaking a sweat.  Every look at your CPU utilization at the process level on a PC while you stream audio?  Do you even hit 5% CPU utilization?
 
I'd be open to the possibility if anyone can show the improvement running Server in Core mode using hard data.  To date, hasn't happened.

  Some reviewers swear by the sound quality improvement brought about optimizing services:
 
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/fidelizer_e.html

  Some writers don't supply any technical measurements to support their claims.  The link you presented is also to someone who wants to sell you an unnecessary add on to an unnecessary configuration - not exactly impartial.  I've seen that site and those claims before - they are ridiculous unless your running 15 year old hardware
I gave that a quick read - talking about interrupts impacting streaming processing?  In 2015?  Seriously?
 
The sad part is, everything people believe can be accomplished using Server Core can largely be accomplished in a Workstation OS by setting processing priorities, stopping "unnecessary" services, and assigning your playback stream to have exclusive use of as many CPU cores as you care to.
 
Until someone comes forward with hard data, all the hand waving in the world doesn't prove what is being claimed.

 
I wish there were easier ways to scientifically test stuff like this. JPLAYmini takes five to twenty seconds for a playlist to start playing, since it writes it all to the computer's memory beforehand. Fidelizer takes two minutes or so to apply the system changes, and then you have to restart your computer to reset the settings to normal. Windows Server 2012 R2 Standard also requires at least a restart to go back to your normal operating system. All three would require two otherwise identical computers (and other equipment) in order to do a listening comparison that isolates all the variables. There are a lot of people all over the Internet who swear that one or more of these things significantly increase sound quality, but to my knowledge, no one has done any real testing between them in a scientific way, aside from a few who took measurements showing the audio to be identical. However, they were not measurements of the sound waves coming out of the headphones, but merely using a sound card, etc. Someday, I would like to properly test it all. Human perception is notoriously unreliable. I perceive an improvement with JPLAYmini and Fidelizer, but I'm not naive enough to claim that it's a real difference. Placebo or not, the only thing I can say for sure is that my subjective experience is enhanced.
 
On that note, the Sound Science people always talk about how even the most affordable DACs (like ones in computers, iPods, iPhones, etc.) already reproduce audio perfectly and anything with better specs will either be below the threshold of audibility and thus sound the same, or be coloring the sound and thus be inferior to the cheap stuff. Mind you, this is not my claim. However, I do intend on at least doing a serious test between the Yggdrasil and Modi 2 whenever I have the opportunity. I would need to hook them up to a device that lets me rapidly switch between them during playback. And that's just an initial test. If I hear a difference, I would then have incentive to venture further with more complex tests and publish the results.

 

[prot]

I wish there were easier ways to scientifically test stuff like this. JPLAYmini takes five to twenty seconds for a playlist to start playing, since it writes it all to the computer's memory beforehand. Fidelizer takes two minutes or so to apply the system changes, and then you have to restart your computer to reset the settings to normal. Windows Server 2012 R2 Standard also requires at least a restart to go back to your normal operating system. All three would require two otherwise identical computers (and other equipment) in order to do a listening comparison that isolates all the variables. There are a lot of people all over the Internet who swear that one or more of these things significantly increase sound quality, but to my knowledge, no one has done any real testing between them in a scientific way, aside from a few who took measurements showing the audio to be identical. However, they were not measurements of the sound waves coming out of the headphones, but merely using a sound card, etc. Someday, I would like to properly test it all. Human perception is notoriously unreliable. I perceive an improvement with JPLAYmini and Fidelizer, but I'm not naive enough to claim that it's a real difference. Placebo or not, the only thing I can say for sure is that my subjective experience is enhanced.

On that note, the Sound Science people always talk about how even the most affordable DACs (like ones in computers, iPods, iPhones, etc.) already reproduce audio perfectly and anything with better specs will either be below the threshold of audibility and thus sound the same, or be coloring the sound and thus be inferior to the cheap stuff. Mind you, this is not my claim. However, I do intend on at least doing a serious test between the Yggdrasil and Modi 2 whenever I have the opportunity. I would need to hook them up to a device that lets me rapidly switch between them during playback. And that's just an initial test. If I hear a difference, I would then have incentive to venture further with more complex tests and publish the results.

The only way to properly A/B those things would be with 2 identical PCs. Noone did that Afaik. Recording the analog output of the soundcard/dac should be ok too ... and not particularly hard. I wont bother doing it cause it's not like it'll convince anyone. Fanboys will stay fanboys and the rest will care same as little.
However, I find it interesting that none of the people who sell those things bothered to come with an even acceptable test. They keep chanting the old trustyourears mantra and maintaining it sounds better without a single trace of proof or coherent explanation. Not a good sign.

 

[bfreedma]

The only way to properly A/B those things would be with 2 identical PCs. Noone did that Afaik. Recording the analog output of the soundcard/dac should be ok too ... and not particularly hard. I wont bother doing it cause it's not like it'll convince anyone. Fanboys will stay fanboys and the rest will care same as little.
However, I find it interesting that none of the people who sell those things bothered to come with an even acceptable test. They keep chanting the old trustyourears mantra and maintaining it sounds better without a single trace of proof or coherent explanation. Not a good sign.

 
Agree
 
When someone performs a legitimate test and publishes actual data, I'd be more than happy to discuss it.  Until then, this is more handwaving and pseudo science having no basis in the reality of today's computing platforms.
 
BTW, if anyone ever dug under the covers of the software that "purifies" a Server OS, they would see it's nothing more than a PowerShell script to turn off services, set process priority and configure process affinity.  Anyone can do that without spending a penny on either Desktop or Server OS based systems.  It still won't make an audible difference, but at least you won't waste your money on software.

 

[Music Alchemist]

The only way to properly A/B those things would be with 2 identical PCs. Noone did that Afaik. Recording the analog output of the soundcard/dac should be ok too ... and not particularly hard. I wont bother doing it cause it's not like it'll convince anyone. Fanboys will stay fanboys and the rest will care same as little.
However, I find it interesting that none of the people who sell those things bothered to come with an even acceptable test. They keep chanting the old trustyourears mantra and maintaining it sounds better without a single trace of proof or coherent explanation. Not a good sign.

 
Yep, I said the same thing. ^_^
 
(Except it would require more than that, such as a way to have them both be playing the same thing at the same time while rapidly switching between them.)
 
But recording the audio and comparing the samples would make things simpler. If you can show me how, I may try it.

 

[fastfourier]

The biggest thing to keep in mind here is there are two different arguments being made:
 
That Yggdrasil and other very high end DACs sound better.
 Now, this one is the more interesting debate, because there is solid science behind what these DACs are doing. Objectively, they should be more accurately presenting the audio. The debate comes in is "is that accuracy audible"? It's the equivalent of having a supercar, but only being able to drive it at highway speeds. We know it's capable of more, we just struggle to make use of it. I don't really like to get into the gory details of what our ears can perceive because it's such a deep topic (and varies from person to person). 
 
That arbitrary changes in PC settings/software sound better.
This one, however, I think is a lot more clear cut, and doesn't even require an ear-test. People with programming experience and understanding in how computers function know that it's pretty hogwash. If you have identical code from two different versions of Windows, for instance, the sound out of that code is going to be identical. If it wasn't identical, computers in general would not work! 1+1 must always equal 2, or you have really, really big problems.
 
In addition, these computers are operating at such an absurdly high clock rate, that for the vast majority of the time they are on, they don't actually do anything. They just sit there in an empty loop. Doing things like filling/emptying memory and such is asserting that the PC is so slow that the act of changing a memory value somehow distorts the audio. That's not really true, especially when the memory of these things is operating at a much higher speed than even your best USB or SPDIF connection.
 
All you need to do (and I don't mean to sound like I'm trivializing) is make sure that your software is handling the audio in the exact way it was recorded, and you're going to get exactly what you put into it. It's then on you, and your external hardware to do the rest (DAC, cables, amp, etc).

 

[prot]

Yep, I said the same thing. ^_^

(Except it would require more than that, such as a way to have them both be playing the same thing at the same time while rapidly switching between them.)

But recording the audio and comparing the samples would make things simpler. If you can show me how, I may try it.

Check out mitchco's blog on CA or archimago's blog. IIRC nwavguy has a tutorial too.
You need a comp with two soundcards or two computers or a profi soundcard that can do analog loopback. You connect the analog output of one soundcard with the analog input of the other and record the result. And than you compare with Audio Diffmaker or similar.
Here's a link to one pretty detailed explanation http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/mitchco/flac-vs-wav-part-2-final-results-155/
Good luck and have fun.

P.S.
I wont spend too much time on CA other than mitchco's amazing blog ... that place sounds like cables

 

[fastfourier]

Check out mitchco's blog on CA or archimago's blog. IIRC nwavguy has a tutorial too.
You need a comp with two soundcards or two computers or a profi soundcard that can do analog loopback. You connect the analog output of one soundcard with the analog input of the other and record the result. And than you compare with Audio Diffmaker or similar.
Here's a link to one pretty detailed explanation http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/mitchco/flac-vs-wav-part-2-final-results-155/
Good luck and have fun.

P.S.
I wont spend too much time on CA other than mitchco's amazing blog ... that place sounds like cables

 
Disclaimer: I haven't read the article yet.
 
That method sounds a bit flawed though. The primary problem is you are counting on the other sound card's ADC to be just as good as the main soundcard's DAC. This is not always the case, especially for consumer equipment.

 

[purrin]

I've actually tried using diffmaker before. I couldn't get it to work. Too much drift.
 
I'll run a test one of these days. Put two DACs in same kind boxes. Wire up passive attenuation circuit to match levels. Conduct long term listening at one's own leisure. Of course the crazies will say that the box on the right sounded better because people tend to prefer stuff which is located toward one's right hand side.