[GeorgeA]

Hi there,

I can understand your point to a certain extent.

That backer at the Kickstarter page was wondering about using an AV receiver in conjunction with Yarra 3DX to get Dolby Atmos immersive sound. I answered him that an AV receiver would processes the Dolby Atmos cues and the resulting analogue audio signal would be sent to speakers. Under this context, it is practically impossible to to capture the decoded signal in order to be conveyed to to Yarra.

Moreover, I think that it is important to take into consideration that Yarra 3DX is quite limited to process multichannel audio signals. Actually, it is provided only with a decoder for Dolby Digital (AC3).

I’m aware that the connection from PC/Xbox to Yarra 3DX via 3.5mm headphone out would not be the best one. For a setup consisting of an xbox/PC and Yarra 3DX, if you select for “Headset Audio - Using HDMI or optical audio headset”, this will send the surround-processed audio to Yarra 3DX. Now, my question: would Yarra 3DX be able to further process that audio signal coming from xbox one/PC?

My option for using the headphones out connector was based on by-passing the further multichannel audio process to be carried out by Yarra. I know that your thesis is that unless the audio signal is in Dolby Digital format, Yarra 3DX will render that audio signal with noticeable losses. Frankly writing, I couldn’t notice those losses.

 

[SierraMadre]

“I know that your thesis is that unless the audio signal is in Dolby Digital format, Yarra 3DX will render that audio signal with noticeable losses. Frankly writing, I couldn’t not notice those losses.”

If you disagree, that’s fine, but to clarify, my position on Dolby vs PCM audio quality as rendered by the Yarra pertains *only* to binaural content - whether it be natively binaural at the recording / mixing stage or later binauralised using a VSS algorithm such as Dolby Atmos for headphone, Creative SBX, DTS headphone X etc. - and *only* when engaging Yarra’s surround mode / HRTF processing which is what is required to correctly position binaural cues.

I dunno, perhaps PCM input mode rendering of binaural has been improved with patches since I last tried, I will revisit / retest over the holidays (Yarra is packed away at present) and post again if my findings differ from previous. . . but have you actually tested / tried this particular comparison for yourself? It would require you to compare 2 channel PCM binaural content in Yarra Surround mode vs that *same* content transcoded into Dolby digital 2.0 * before* engaging Yarra surround mode. Also, as I may have mentioned before, no PCM = no HRTF preset selection in the Yarra’s surround mode so that alone already puts it at a disadvantage

“my question is would Yarra 3DX be able to further process that audio signal coming from Xbox / PC”

- I have already confirmed that it can. If you have doubts, no problem, I can only ask again if you’ve actually tried the specific setup I describe?
Unless the Yarra’s ability to process Binaural / pre-binauralised content in the absolute sense is your point of contention, then why shouldn’t it work? Dolby Atmos for Headphone isn’t a standalone audio format per se. It’s just a VSS conversion algorithm applied to an actual format that downmixes it into binaural stereo PCM or Dolby Digital 2.0 depending on config. We’re not asking Yarra to natively decode and process a Dolby Atmos for home theater signal because obviously it can’t do that, in this case it’s the Xbox or PC that takes care of that part.
To reiterate, What’s being fed to the Yarra in this particular scenario is still essentially just 2 channel stereo binauralised for headphones, either in PCM format or, if setup as I recommend, then downmixed or transcoded into Dolby Digital 2.0 first.

“My option for using the headphones out connector was based on by-passing the further multichannel audio process to be carried out by Yarra.”

Why would you want to do that though? If it’s to avoid double HRTF, you’re out of luck because it’s necessary in this scenario. The Yarra’s special sauce is beam forming to render surround and 3D effects and beam-forming only appears to happen when surround mode is engaged. As previously discovered by other users on here and other forums, in the Yarra’s stereo mode, the Yarra just acts like a regular driver array.
The Yarra’s surround mode is required to extrapolate / upmix and render that positional information correctly in this binaural feed scenario and irrespective of connection input, it is surround mode on/off that is the final determinant of whether the Yarra’s surround processing is applied.

If you are absolutely intent on ”bypassing further processing” at all costs then you just keep the Yarra in stereo mode (but then you’ll lose the surround effect) and if you are intent on feeding it the binaural content in PCM form-only then why use the headphone out into the Yarra from the Xbox controller when you can just set the Xbox / PC to a linear PCM output to the Yarra over HDMI or optical?

(- Not to mention, using the controller’s headphone jack would be double-amping and to avoid that you’d need a separate dac/amp or receiver with line-out in between)

 

[GeorgeA]

When I wrote that one option was to use the headphones out connector I had in mind what someone much more competent than I also did.

Have a look at the post #29, page 2, on this topic: “I demoed the YARRA 3DX at the LA Audio Show using my Smyth A8 as the binauralizer. The sound bar took the analog binaural output from the Symth box and delivered left and right discrete audio signals (minimal crosstalk) to listeners.”The author is Dr AIX aka Dr Mark Waldrep. Please note that Realiser A8 is provided with Phones Digital Out in digital optical S/P-DIF form.

I haven’t got a device capable of transcoding into Dolby Digital 2.0 firstly. I use a media player (M9702) as a source, which is connected to my Yarra 3DX via an HDMI cable.

 

[SierraMadre]

When I wrote that one option was to use the headphones out connector I had in mind what someone much more competent than I also did.

Have a look at the post #29, page 2, on this topic: “I demoed the YARRA 3DX at the LA Audio Show using my Smyth A8 as the binauralizer. The sound bar took the analog binaural output from the Symth box and delivered left and right discrete audio signals (minimal crosstalk) to listeners.”The author is Dr AIX aka Dr Mark Waldrep. Please note that Realiser A8 is provided with Phones Digital Out in digital optical S/P-DIF form.

I haven’t got a device capable of transcoding into Dolby Digital 2.0 firstly. I use a media player (M9702) as a source, which is connected to my Yarra 3DX via an HDMI cable.

You’re missing my point. Why use the terrible wireless dac/amp on the Xbox One controller or add in a further dac/amp between the Xbox and the Yarra in the chain when the Xbox can pass that *very same* binaural 2 channel signal directly to the Yarra over HDMI or optical either as PCM or Dolby Digital 2.0 given that the Yarra’s surround mode clearly depends on manual user activation?

As for why Dr. Waldrep didn’t use optical, could be any number of reasons. Did Dr, Waldrep have an optical cable to hand? Was optical input on the Yarra demo models working at the time? whatever the case, you appear to be inferring from his comment that having the Yarra act as amp and speakers only via 3.5 out from the Xbox controller might preserve some kind of essential key to binaural goodness that would otherwise be lost or degraded if the Yarra’s DAC were to receive the signal in digital form . . .?

If you read the rest of that thread, all dr. Waldrep’s comments, the responses and answers to them, you’ll see that nowhere does he categorically state (despite being asked) whether the surround effect of already binaural/binauralised content can be rendered without engaging the Yarra’s surround processing (I.e. double binauralisation).

 

[GeorgeA]

It seems that it’s not so important whether the headphones out or optical connector is used. There’s a new piece of information at the Kickstarter comments page. Another backer has just reported that he connected his Yarra to an Xbox One S with audio settings for bitstream Dolby Digital on optical output, HDMI/optical headphones and Atmos for headphones. For movies, the sound was just slightly better than 5.1 Dolby digital from his TV with the Yarra doing the decoding.

 

[SierraMadre]

It seems that it’s not so important whether the headphones out or optical connector is used. There’s a new piece of information at the Kickstarter comments page. Another backer has just reported that he connected his Yarra to an Xbox One S with audio settings for bitstream Dolby Digital on optical output, HDMI/optical headphones and Atmos for headphones. For movies, the sound was just slightly better than 5.1 Dolby digital from his TV with the Yarra doing the decoding.

Ok. But unless he has the Yarra set to stereo mode (which I doubt) then he’s using exactly the same setup I described that you were previously sceptical of. . .

As for the efficacy of Dolby Atmos for headphone in this scenario, it will depend on whether the source content is Atmos or not. If games or films have Dolby Atmos for home theater, then applying Atmos for headphones works well, particularly if it’s true Atmos rather than more lossy Atmos via DD5.1 Plus or whatever it is that Netflix uses. I didn’t get that much in the way of height effects from the Lucky 13 episode of Love and Robots on Netflix for example but got good results from the 4k UHD Bluray of Avengers Endgame.
If it’s a non-Atmos Dolby codec then the improvement over vanilla Dolby Digital 5.1 is merely slight.

 

[Stefanthebass]

Very good, I think we are getting down to the basic thing I wrote before (but maybe I was too complicated):

1) Yarra does a decent job in "sound beaming" 2.0 audio to two ears. Multichannel audio has to be converted into 2.0 by some binaurilizer
2) the binaurilizer within the Yarra lacks configuration options, at least concering the balance of the volumes of the individual channels (e.g. center vs. surround channels)
3) external binaurilizers (Smyth, Atmos for headphones, ...) are capable of producing the same or better results than the Yarra internal binaurilization engine

I like to throw in another thought:
The delivery of sound from the Yarra compared to headphones is fundementally different. Therefore I think that the HRTFs that have to be used to convert a 5.1 to binaural also have to be different. Only the Smyth device is (as far as I understand it) capable of measuring the HRTF and therefore it can adapt perfectly to the Yarra sound system.
Other binaurilizer can only use HRTF calculated for headphone delivery...

 

[GeorgeA]

Some days ago, at the Kickstarter comments page, one backer wrote that he received his Smyth Research Realiser A16 and looked forward to replicating the initial setup used by Comhear. He also added that he would post his findings as soon as he got it all re-wired installed and tested.

As there is no post yet, I hope that he didn’t get lost among wires and measurements.

 

[Stefanthebass]

One more thing - listen to the AstoundSound 3d audio demo from 2011:


For me this is the best 3D audio demo there is. The special thing is, that it really has height information.The plane in the beginning flys above me and when he tears the newspaper (at 4:00) it starts at ear level and then goes down.

So with a proper binaurilizer there is so much potential!

 

[SierraMadre]

Very good, I think we are getting down to the basic thing I wrote before (but maybe I was too complicated):

1) Yarra does a decent job in "sound beaming" 2.0 audio to two ears. Multichannel audio has to be converted into 2.0 by some binaurilizer
2) the binaurilizer within the Yarra lacks configuration options, at least concering the balance of the volumes of the individual channels (e.g. center vs. surround channels)
3) external binaurilizers (Smyth, Atmos for headphones, ...) are capable of producing the same or better results than the Yarra internal binaurilization engine

I like to throw in another thought:
The delivery of sound from the Yarra compared to headphones is fundementally different. Therefore I think that the HRTFs that have to be used to convert a 5.1 to binaural also have to be different. Only the Smyth device is (as far as I understand it) capable of measuring the HRTF and therefore it can adapt perfectly to the Yarra sound system.
Other binaurilizer can only use HRTF calculated for headphone delivery...

I think point 3 is, at least in my experience, too simplistic a conclusion and not entirely balanced.
If we set aside Smyth for the moment (have not tried it and by all accounts it’s almost indistinguishable from the real thing when properly configured), Atmos for Headphone and other headphone VSS solutions cannot match the Yarra in one key area, depth for center channel and the edges of the front / left channels that border then center. Whether that’s due to the efficacy of its binauralisation algorithm, or, more likely, just due to its physical placement as the source of the sound being directed at the listenener from several feet in front, I don’t know.

When I previously mentioned good results from Atmos for Headphone with Avengers’ Endgame, I meant via the Yarra. The height effects were there and enjoyable but not as “high” or as focussed as using Atmos for headphones, *but* again, this was offset for me by the Yarra’s vastly superior depth of center channel etc. Just to clarify, this was achieved by using the Yarra’s internal binauralisation engine for second-stage binauralisation on top of Dolby Atmos for headphone.

I have complaints about aspects of multichannel and binauralisation on the Yarra but its basic ability to render 3D audio formats (when fed headphone VSS) and converted discrete multichannel surround (when fed with Dolby Digital 5.1) are not amongst those complaints which are limited to:

- the lack of beam control / customisation promised by the control app mockup images which you alluded to

- the lack of information as to how the HRTF models in Dolby mode differ from each other

- the negative impact on quality the surround mode has on binaural PCM (although this may have been patched up since I last used/updated it).

and foremost:

- the lack of multichannel PCM support over HDMI and USB.

At this stage, I am unconvinced that we will ever receive multichannel PCM support. The fact that we can’t even apply the HRTF models to stereo PCM suggests that they never intended to ship with it in the first place and if it was ever truly on the development agenda, then it was probably abandoned at some point.

Btw, while Smyth is obviously gonna be the best by far, there do exist other headphone virtualisation algorithms that use measurements to personalize the HRTF, Waves NX (head circumference and inter-aural arc) and SXFI (face and ear mapping for the general consumer, and in-ear mic recorded PRIR for the lucky journalists and Singapore product launch attendees). I think Redscape Audio might use some physical measurements too.

Also, AFAIK, the Smyth Realiser to Yarra method demoed by Dr. Waldrep doesn’t rely on any kind of special binauralisation mode optimised for speaker output. Minus the head-tracking, it is (I think), the exact same HRTF signal “calculated for headphone delivery”.

 

[SierraMadre]

@Dr AIX I saw your recent comment on your blog when asked by a Yarra owner as to if and when you had / would test your production model Yarra(s) as per your previous statements of intent on the matter.

Please do correct me if I am wrong (and I sincerely hope I am) but this reply of yours suggests you’re not even sure if you can be bothered to unbox, test, compare to your prototype and share your impressions with backers awaiting your verdict and are instead leaning more towards just selling them on without . . .?

“I’m sorry I haven’t followed up on this. In fact, the two units that I purchased are still sitting in their boxes under my table. I have a prototype model that I use under my computer monitor. The last I heard about the Comhear company was out of business. The management and board didn’t know what they had, didn’t know how to sell it, and didn’t understand the complexities of the device. Sad really. Maybe I’ll crack on out…but more likely sell the in the box units I have.”

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6596

 

[mikemg]

I have been extremely disappointed with the yarra 3dx ability to produce 360 surround sound ,and have been investigating how this could be improved ,and discovered by using my Xbox One as source set for Dolby Atmos for headphones this could be significantly improved

Configured Xbox to output with free Dolby Access App when connected with HDMI use Atmos for headphones
Tested with Dolby Atmos 7.1 demo of plane in 7.1 and for the first time the 360 soundfield was nearly there 7.1 sound everywhere including a phantom height sound front left right even behind special effects and above me
This is first time I have had close to acceptable sound staging
It would be good if others could try this I only used YouTube demos on Xbox to achieve this
Any comments

I realise by using Dolby Atmos for headphones the effect could be equally achieved with my headphones but certainly not with any soundbar not designed to support Atmos
For me the thing that makes this special is the Xbox can use HDMI for Atmos
Looking at images of the Demos when they pitched this product the source was an Xbox I guess a shame the guys who developed this product didn’t tell us about this
Untapped potential I guess also has anyone got an explanation as to why even using YouTube with Dolby Atmos for headphones on an Xbox One S I managed to get a not perfect but very close to my experiences of listening to Atmos with a 7.1 system

 

[mikemg]

Almost forgot this output was PCM HDMI connect HRTF 8 for me seemed to give best binaural positioning

 

[SierraMadre]

I have been extremely disappointed with the yarra 3dx ability to produce 360 surround sound ,and have been investigating how this could be improved ,and discovered by using my Xbox One as source set for Dolby Atmos for headphones this could be significantly improved

Configured Xbox to output with free Dolby Access App when connected with HDMI use Atmos for headphones
Tested with Dolby Atmos 7.1 demo of plane in 7.1 and for the first time the 360 soundfield was nearly there 7.1 sound everywhere including a phantom height sound front left right even behind special effects and above me
This is first time I have had close to acceptable sound staging
It would be good if others could try this I only used YouTube demos on Xbox to achieve this
Any comments

I realise by using Dolby Atmos for headphones the effect could be equally achieved with my headphones but certainly not with any soundbar not designed to support Atmos
For me the thing that makes this special is the Xbox can use HDMI for Atmos
Looking at images of the Demos when they pitched this product the source was an Xbox I guess a shame the guys who developed this product didn’t tell us about this
Untapped potential I guess also has anyone got an explanation as to why even using YouTube with Dolby Atmos for headphones on an Xbox One S I managed to get a not perfect but very close to my experiences of listening to Atmos with a 7.1 system

Good to hear that it works for someone else too. If you want to see my impressions of this method, check my earlier posts in this thread, have written fairly extensively about it here and also on the Yarra threads ar Avforums and AVSforum (under the names Sanctuary001 and SuikoSanctuary about using the Yarra to upmix pre-binauralised content (whether pre-binauralised at the recording / mixing stage or later by Atmos for headphone and other 3rd party VSS solutions) via Xbox One X.

Something to note is that atmos for headphone and Windows Sonic processed feeds can be sent from the Xbox to the Yarra or whatever else either as PCM or as bitstreamed Dolby Digital. Whatever the audio output is set to *before* activating Atmos for headphones /Windows Sonic will determine the form sent. If you deactivate Atmos for headphone then whatever the audio output setting says on Xbox will indicate the form being used, whether it’s uncompressed stereo PCM or bitstreamed Dolby Digital.
My previous posts will outline why I have found sending Atmos for headphone in Dolby digital form to be superior in this instance, not to mention, unless firmware has changed since I last updated, HRTF models are only selectable if the Yarra is receiving Dolby digital, not PCM.

 

[mikemg]

Good to hear that it works for someone else too. If you want to see my impressions of this method, check my earlier posts in this thread, have written fairly extensively about it here and also on the Yarra threads ar Avforums and AVSforum (under the names Sanctuary001 and SanctuaryEphemeral) about using the Yarra to upmix pre-binauralised content (whether pre-binauralised at the recording / mixing stage or later by Atmos for headphone and other 3rd party VSS solutions) via Xbox One X.

Something to note is that atmos for headphone and Windows Sonic processed feeds can be sent from the Xbox to the Yarra or whatever else either as PCM or as bitstreamed Dolby Digital. Whatever the audio output is set to *before* activating Atmos for headphones /Windows Sonic will determine the form sent. If you deactivate Atmos for headphone then whatever the audio output setting says on Xbox will indicate the form being used, whether it’s uncompressed stereo PCM or bitstreamed Dolby Digital.
My previous posts will outline why I have found sending Atmos for headphone in Dolby digital form to be superior in this instance, not to mention, unless firmware has changed since I last updated, HRTF models are only selectable if the Yarra is receiving Dolby digital, not PCM.

Thanks for your advice and I will read up your previous posts
However I am rather confused about your comments about HRTF only being available when using Dolby Digital output have checked this a number of times and found that HDMI output to Yarra is PCM as no blue light on Yarra only green which I understood was it wasn't activating Dolby Digital
I set my Xbox One S to output as Atmos headphone using HDMI looking at app on my iPhone selected HTRF 8
Can you possibly explain why this option was still available using PCM output as the settings on my Xbox for Dolby Digital were greyed out
Also can you possibly share your recommended graphic equaliser setting
Many thanks as I feel there is untapped potential I want to unlock with better graphic equaliser settings