[voja]

Exactly. If you’re rich it’s not a problem. And the rich are the ones who these greed mongers are targeting.

The target audience is definitely people who are financially well-off. However, they are extreme enthusiasts, and like in any other field, money is no object for them. They are after the best of the best.

I would never say that YAMAHA would fall under "greed mongers"—nowhere near that. You could most definitely say that for quite a few other manufacturers who sell marketing BS for big $$$$. It's a big and controversial topic, but if I were to actually express my personal views and observations I've made over the years... yeah, I'd be in big trouble. There are a number of manufacturers who quite clearly [to me] take advantage of their customers, and some quite visibly are mocking them in their face, basically saying "let's see how high we can price it before these idiots won't purchase it". The higher you go, the bigger bs they make up, and it gets more and more comical...

You know how it is for these manufacturers: where there's demand, there will always be supply. Enough said, I hope.

YAMAHA, in my eyes, is all about genuine value, genuine craftsmanship, and the YH-5000SE showcases that. It's not affordable, but it's a very clear and great take on creating the finest headphones.

 

[Failed Engineer]

I think it a little differently. If these Yamaha engineers can’t make a great planar I can satisfy my hypothesis that planar tech is inferior for headphones than traditional dynamics, stats, and now ribbons. My ears, your ears caveat of course.

I still have great belief for this headphone and will buy one at some point so I can come to my own conclusion.

 

[paradoxper]

Value is always going to be a subjective thing for an individual. And I'm assuming you haven't even heard it yet so who knows, it could surprise you...

Sure. I will make the judgement as I always do by buying the thing. I have not been impressed with the proposition of a recycled D8K driver. So no surprise.

 

[doctorK53]

The headphones are consumer goods. So the value is subjective while the price is objective. Each head-fier will judge if the price is fair individually. It is true for any consumer goods. I do respect (and enjoy) any judgment of anyone.

Well, I do not think a big company like Yamaha can earn significant profit from such expensive and minor products which are certainly sold in much fewer numbers than their cheaper and more popular goods. Though, if their attitude toward price setting matters, we should see the financial status.

Let me check their report (I found it in Japanese. English version here). For Yamaha as a group, pianos and other musical instruments are the main product (68% of sales, around 90% of profit in 2021Q2-2022Q1*, Page 10). Sales of AV devices (total) were about 40 billion yen (read from the chart on page 66), which is around 10% of the group. (Similar amount of sales in PA equipment).
Yamaha is first and foremost a piano company. Sales of acoustic pianos are around 60 billion yen (already greater than AV), electric instruments 100 billion yen, wind instruments 40 billion yen, and guitars 30 billion yen.

* Fiscal (and school) year in Japan begins April 1st.

For audio devices, they mention headphones and IEM are growing, as well as meeting solutions for business needs, but no other quantitative information on home AV. In the qualitative statement, they say their new technology "listening care" was praised. We can find a short statement on "sound quality" in the first sentence of the following paragraph, but from the context, I think it is not about high-end audio, but instead more on high-tech features in the price range of a few hundred USD.

" Meanwhile, the Company will seek to accommodate the rise in demand from consumers committed to high sound quality. Yamaha has differentiated its headphones and earphones with its Listening Care function, which delivers superior sound quality while protecting users’ ears. Our AV products, meanwhile, propose accessible ways of enjoying authentic, high-quality, 3D surround sound via wireless devices. We aim to grow sales of products in both of these areas." (Page 67)

We can guess the position of the headphone team in Yamaha from the youtube video, too. In the video, the product planner Mr. Sato told he worked a lot for consensus building in the company. It means the development of high-end headphones is a new, minor, and perhaps experimental business for them.

Now we can back to the price of headphones. The retail price of YH-5000SE is 450,000 yen (without VAT). Assuming about 10% of merchandising margin, their sales are around 400,000 yen per set (including two pairs of pads, 6.3mm and 4.4mm cables, and a stand). If they can produce and sell 1000 pairs per year, total sales are 400 million yen = 1% of home AV = 0.1% of the group total. However, the production capacity is unknown. If the figure is 100 pairs per year, it is 0.01% of sales of Yamaha.

In addition, there is a Yamaha shop near my home. I found that the price range of acoustic pianos is 300,000 to 2,000,000 yen. YH-5000SE is certainly a very very expensive product as a pair of headphones, but it is still at the cheaper end of the piano price, from the viewpoint of the piano giant.

Conclusion: High-end headphone is, in terms of financial impact, a minor product group for the company. I do not think they have a financial reason to be too greedy with headphones, except for earning money to justify and continue R&D and production of high-end headphones, so that the team persuades the top management of the congromarit.

 

[doctorK53]

The headphones are consumer goods. So the value is subjective while the price is objective. Each head-fier will judge if the price is fair individually. It is true for any consumer goods. I do respect (and enjoy) any judgment of anyone.

Well, I do not think a big company like Yamaha can earn significant profit from such expensive and minor products which are certainly sold in much fewer numbers than their cheaper and more popular goods. Though, if their attitude toward price setting matters, we should see the financial status.

Let me check their report (I found it in Japanese. English version here). For Yamaha as a group, pianos and other musical instruments are the main product (68% of sales, around 90% of profit in 2021Q2-2022Q1*, Page 10). Sales of AV devices (total) were about 40 billion yen (read from the chart on page 66), which is around 10% of the group. (Similar amount of sales in PA equipment).
Yamaha is first and foremost a piano company. Sales of acoustic pianos are around 60 billion yen (already greater than AV), electric instruments 100 billion yen, wind instruments 40 billion yen, and guitars 30 billion yen.

* Fiscal (and school) year in Japan begins April 1st.

For audio devices, they mention headphones and IEM are growing, as well as meeting solutions for business needs, but no other quantitative information on home AV. In the qualitative statement, they say their new technology "listening care" was praised. We can find a short statement on "sound quality" in the first sentence of the following paragraph, but from the context, I think it is not about high-end audio, but instead more on high-tech features in the price range of a few hundred USD.

" Meanwhile, the Company will seek to accommodate the rise in demand from consumers committed to high sound quality. Yamaha has differentiated its headphones and earphones with its Listening Care function, which delivers superior sound quality while protecting users’ ears. Our AV products, meanwhile, propose accessible ways of enjoying authentic, high-quality, 3D surround sound via wireless devices. We aim to grow sales of products in both of these areas." (Page 67)

We can guess the position of the headphone team in Yamaha from the youtube video, too. In the video, the product planner Mr. Sato told he worked a lot for consensus building in the company. It means the development of high-end headphones is a new, minor, and perhaps experimental business for them.

Now we can back to the price of headphones. The retail price of YH-5000SE is 450,000 yen (without VAT). Assuming about 10% of merchandising margin, their sales are around 400,000 yen per set (including two pairs of pads, 6.3mm and 4.4mm cables, and a stand). If they can produce and sell 1000 pairs per year, total sales are 400 million yen = 1% of home AV = 0.1% of the group total. However, the production capacity is unknown. If the figure is 100 pairs per year, it is 0.01% of sales of Yamaha.

In addition, there is a Yamaha shop near my home. I found that the price range of acoustic pianos is 300,000 to 2,000,000 yen. YH-5000SE is certainly a very very expensive product as a pair of headphones, but it is still at the cheaper end of the piano price, from the viewpoint of the piano giant.

Conclusion: High-end headphone is, in terms of financial impact, a minor product group for the company. I do not think they have a financial reason to be too greedy with headphones, except for earning money to justify and continue R&D and production of high-end headphones, so that the team persuades the top management of the congromarit.

Against my general conclusion above, I cannot miss the price difference between the option balanced cables.

4.4mm (HBC-SC020) : 71,500 yen
xlr 4pin (HXC-SC020) : 93,500 yen
Difference = 22,000 yen
(All with VAT)

It is already confirmed that the difference of the two cables is only the plug. (Info from participants at the audio shows' Yamaha booth) . The xlr plug is made by Neutrik, so it should not be more expensive than a few thousand yen. If the 4.4mm cable is not a bargain price, I should agree with those who say Yamaha is greedy on the price setting of the cables.

 

[ScornDefeat]

Against my general conclusion above, I cannot miss the price difference between the option balanced cables.

4.4mm (HBC-SC020) : 71,500 yen
xlr 4pin (HXC-SC020) : 93,500 yen
Difference = 22,000 yen
(All with VAT)

It is already confirmed that the difference of the two cables is only the plug. (Info from participants at the audio shows' Yamaha booth) . The xlr plug is made by Neutrik, so it should not be more expensive than a few thousand yen. If the 4.4mm cable is not a bargain price, I should agree with someone who says Yamaha is greedy on the price setting of the cables.

That's an interesting assessment; Neutrik 4-Pin XLR male plug is hardly a difference in price compared to any general 4.4mm Pentaconn (I don't even think Neutrik makes one), so the statement that the wire is only a different of plug yet the price is vastly more expensive seems to speak of greedy cable price setting from Yamaha beyond the norm.

Even if they used higher quality 4.4mm or XLR plugs, like Furutech or Oyaide, the price difference between 4.4mm plugs and XLR plugs is negligible.

 

[doctorK53]

The headphones are consumer goods. So the value is subjective while the price is objective. Each head-fier will judge if the price is fair individually. It is true for any consumer goods. I do respect (and enjoy) any judgment of anyone.

Well, I do not think a big company like Yamaha can earn significant profit from such expensive and minor products which are certainly sold in much fewer numbers than their cheaper and more popular goods. Though, if their attitude toward price setting matters, we should see the financial status.

Let me check their report (I found it in Japanese. English version here). For Yamaha as a group, pianos and other musical instruments are the main product (68% of sales, around 90% of profit in 2021Q2-2022Q1*, Page 10). Sales of AV devices (total) were about 40 billion yen (read from the chart on page 66), which is around 10% of the group. (Similar amount of sales in PA equipment).
Yamaha is first and foremost a piano company. Sales of acoustic pianos are around 60 billion yen (already greater than AV), electric instruments 100 billion yen, wind instruments 40 billion yen, and guitars 30 billion yen.

* Fiscal (and school) year in Japan begins April 1st.

For audio devices, they mention headphones and IEM are growing, as well as meeting solutions for business needs, but no other quantitative information on home AV. In the qualitative statement, they say their new technology "listening care" was praised. We can find a short statement on "sound quality" in the first sentence of the following paragraph, but from the context, I think it is not about high-end audio, but instead more on high-tech features in the price range of a few hundred USD.

" Meanwhile, the Company will seek to accommodate the rise in demand from consumers committed to high sound quality. Yamaha has differentiated its headphones and earphones with its Listening Care function, which delivers superior sound quality while protecting users’ ears. Our AV products, meanwhile, propose accessible ways of enjoying authentic, high-quality, 3D surround sound via wireless devices. We aim to grow sales of products in both of these areas." (Page 67)

We can guess the position of the headphone team in Yamaha from the youtube video, too. In the video, the product planner Mr. Sato told he worked a lot for consensus building in the company. It means the development of high-end headphones is a new, minor, and perhaps experimental business for them.

Now we can back to the price of headphones. The retail price of YH-5000SE is 450,000 yen (without VAT). Assuming about 10% of merchandising margin, their sales are around 400,000 yen per set (including two pairs of pads, 6.3mm and 4.4mm cables, and a stand). If they can produce and sell 1000 pairs per year, total sales are 400 million yen = 1% of home AV = 0.1% of the group total. However, the production capacity is unknown. If the figure is 100 pairs per year, it is 0.01% of sales of Yamaha.

In addition, there is a Yamaha shop near my home. I found that the price range of acoustic pianos is 300,000 to 2,000,000 yen. YH-5000SE is certainly a very very expensive product as a pair of headphones, but it is still at the cheaper end of the piano price, from the viewpoint of the piano giant.

Conclusion: High-end headphone is, in terms of financial impact, a minor product group for the company. I do not think they have a financial reason to be too greedy with headphones, except for earning money to justify and continue R&D and production of high-end headphones, so that the team persuades the top management of the congromarit.

Some pointed out the exterior of the YH-5000SE reminds engines of Yamaha Motor. The sales of Yamaha Motor are more than double those of Yamaha Corporation. The number is not included in my post above since they are two independent companies. (Yamaha Corporation and Yamaha Motors have 4.6% and 4.7% of the share of each other).

 

[Beagle]

They could price it at $2000 and sell 5000 of them.

 

[537778]

They could price it at $2000 and sell 5000 of them.

Absolutely, sir.

 

[SolarCetacean]

They could price it at $2000 and sell 5000 of them.

That logic assumes that they can produce 5000 of them fast enough to keep up with demand. That they have the supply to meet the increased demand from a lower selling price. However, the interviews mentioned that production yield of the driver was something they had to keep in mind during the development process, so I'm presuming that their yields, and resulting rate of production, is quite low, at least for this initial batch of headphones. Yields always improve over time, but are low for the initial production run. Yamaha's interest is to price their headphones such that they make the most amount of money from selling every one they make.

In a similar case, I've heard that Stax only makes about 50 of their newest SR-X9000 flagship headphones each month. They cannot keep up with the demand for it. The waitlist for that headphone is 9 months long and has been that long basically since release. Waitlists deter buyers just like high prices do. So the logic of lower prices for more sales only works if there's enough supply to accommodate the demand.

Did Yamaha price it right? We don't know. The initial release is the "Special Edition", so presumably the regular version will have a lower price. $4000? $4500? That's in the same ballpark as the Meze Elite, LCD-5, and D8000 Pro. There are many people who say that the Elite isn't worth its price in sound quality, yet Meze seems to have no issue selling them. Maybe Yamaha will be in a similar boat? Who knows, we need more reviews.

The final consideration in regards to selling price is how much dealer margin in built into the MSRP. For example, Hifiman's upper echelon of products has an unusually large amount of dealer margin in their MSRP, so you can usually get a dealer to mark down the product for you by some amount. You can usually get a new Susvara for ~$4500 by emailing the dealer, and I got 20% off my Shangri-La Jr from my dealer early last year. I think the guy from TSAV mentioned that earlier in this thread. I think the MSRP of $5000 was more about making a statement of the summit-fi aspirations of Yamaha rather than a long-term selling price. "It's not about the money, it's about sending a message".

 

[sp33ls]

This contrast suggests YH-5000SE demands at least a few hundred hours of burn-in. Needs time to see comprehensive and fair reviews.

My personal experience with orthos has led me to believe that orthos generally don't benefit as much from driver burn-in when compared to dynamics (e.g., ZMF and of that ilk). I found that brain burn-in happened more with planars than with actual driver burn-in. But, as always, YMMV.

I was torn between the 5000SE and ZMF Atrium for Xmas. Being a fan of high-end Japanese audio products, I was very much intrigued by the 5kSE. It'd be fun to pair it alongside one of Yamaha's largest R&D efforts (or likely up there with any HiFi component for that matter), the C-1 FET preamp.

Now, I've got the Atriums on my head and am a very happy boy.
I'll just have to wait and try the 5kSE at a future show and see for myself, but am glad I didn't make a blind purchase on them.

I think it a little differently. If these Yamaha engineers can’t make a great planar I can satisfy my hypothesis that planar tech is inferior for headphones than traditional dynamics, stats, and now ribbons. My ears, your ears caveat of course.

I'm in the same boat. I love the subbass of a good planar, but have always felt more emotionally connected to dynamic drivers. I'm also not a detail wh*re, so there's that too.

 

[Beagle]

That logic assumes that they can produce 5000 of them fast enough to keep up with demand. That they have the supply to meet the increased demand from a lower selling price. However, the interviews mentioned that production yield of the driver was something they had to keep in mind during the development process, so I'm presuming that their yields, and resulting rate of production, is quite low, at least for this initial batch of headphones. Yields always improve over time, but are low for the initial production run. Yamaha's interest is to price their headphones such that they make the most amount of money from selling every one they make.

In a similar case, I've heard that Stax only makes about 50 of their newest SR-X9000 flagship headphones each month. They cannot keep up with the demand for it. The waitlist for that headphone is 9 months long and has been that long basically since release. Waitlists deter buyers just like high prices do. So the logic of lower prices for more sales only works if there's enough supply to accommodate the demand.

Did Yamaha price it right? We don't know. The initial release is the "Special Edition", so presumably the regular version will have a lower price. $4000? $4500? That's in the same ballpark as the Meze Elite, LCD-5, and D8000 Pro. There are many people who say that the Elite isn't worth its price in sound quality, yet Meze seems to have no issue selling them. Maybe Yamaha will be in a similar boat? Who knows, we need more reviews.

The final consideration in regards to selling price is how much dealer margin in built into the MSRP. For example, Hifiman's upper echelon of products has an unusually large amount of dealer margin in their MSRP, so you can usually get a dealer to mark down the product for you by some amount. You can usually get a new Susvara for ~$4500 by emailing the dealer, and I got 20% off my Shangri-La Jr from my dealer early last year. I think the guy from TSAV mentioned that earlier in this thread. I think the MSRP of $5000 was more about making a statement of the summit-fi aspirations of Yamaha rather than a long-term selling price. "It's not about the money, it's about sending a message".

So because you can’t make them fast enough, you price it out of reach to slow demand? Not literally, but that’s kinda how it reads. And no guarantee of great sound anyway.

 

[XVampireX]

Yeah, in this world, if you can't give reasoning to your pricing or be competitive in one area or another, you're gonna fail.
So far from what I'm hearing about these headphones it's probably gonna be an overpriced fail.

 

[Tano]

We all know it's very expensive, but calling it a fail without even listening to it, is pure nonsense.

I hope we can see a FR soon to get an idea about the tuning.

 

[SolarCetacean]

So because you can’t make them fast enough, you price it out of reach to slow demand? Not literally, but that’s kinda how it reads. And no guarantee of great sound anyway.

It's supply vs demand. If you price each one at $2000 and sell 5000, you make $10 million. Or you could price each one at $5000, only need to sell 2000, and still make the same amount of money, if you can find 2000 buyers at that higher price. The higher the price, the smaller the market. If you price them at $2000, but can only make 3000 of them, you're making $6 million. The idea of decreasing prices to increase demand and make more sales is only an easy decision if your supply is not meaningfully constrained. That's where market research comes in, and estimating how large the market is for a headphone at a given price, and balancing that vs how much of the product you can make.

Also, reducing prices to increase demand is needed if your demand isn't high enough. From what we've seen in this thread, Japanese retailers are already running into a waitlist for this headphone, even at the MSRP (though MSRP is lower in Japan than in the West). So it seems like there's no shortage of demand for this headphone at the moment (this may change depending on reviews), so there's no incentive for Yamaha to decrease the price per unit sold.

Price is never a guarantee of good sound; this is not about sound quality, it's about pricing strategy.