[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooheadsoo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, more speakers is a legitimate sort of band-aid, but you do have to get up to a certain quality for the satellites before it will be satisfactory. The cheap low excursion but otherwise fine set of tradeoffs designs would fit with this plan well, in many ways.

The majority of the sound still comes from the front two speakers, even with surround processing. What you're effectively doing is trading off more distortion in the front speakers for funky surround effects. This isn't like a line array.

Quote:

I think the HK subwoofer white papers find that two subwoofers on opposite sides of the room generated the flattest response for most of the room. 4 was better, but not by much.

Yeah, but to get the averaging effect they talk about in the HK paper, you have to feed those two subs a mono signal. Feeding them different signals (.2) doesn't benefit at all. It just means twice the room effects headaches. (Well, .2 isn't all that bad, and I'm in favor of it generally, but it is no magic bullet.)

 

[virometal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverTrumpet999 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Professional optimization/setup may be required to get the best out of an 11.2 system.

No kidding. Thanks for the great post! I can see the purist's giving a big

to the whole idea.

But let's say the Yamaha algorithm is a good one and the system is professionally set-up...for Wodgy and Prozakk, let's say top tier speakers are used from a 11.2 high end seperate's system. Anyone interested then?

I doubt there intention is to plan for some upcoming media. The company's always been DSP loco as an audiophile might say!

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Prozakk Once you go with seperate amplifiers, you'd never want to go back.

My home theater/surround audio set-up is in my profile. While I'm not one for waving my system around, it might meet your expectations; maybe not.

If my avatar offends you, my PM box is always open!

--

I think this stuff's cool and enjoy the opinions!

 

[ooheadsoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy /img/forum/go_quote.gif The majority of the sound still comes from the front two speakers, even with surround processing. What you're effectively doing is trading off more distortion in the front speakers for funky surround effects. This isn't like a line array.

Well, not entirely. The center channel will take the dialogue, which is a large majority of the sound in most cases, and there are now 4 other speakers in the front instead of just 2. Granted, the 2 mains will take the bulk of the effects and are supposed to be decent speakers - but this is a $1500+ receiver. I don't think people will get $100 speakers to populate their 11.2 system. This isn't an entry level system. For surround effects, I suspect their efficacy will be greatly improved, especially if the speakers are very directional. Like the effect you get at an imax or other theater with more channels of sound than normal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah, but to get the averaging effect they talk about in the HK paper, you have to feed those two subs a mono signal. Feeding them different signals (.2) doesn't benefit at all. It just means twice the room effects headaches. (Well, .2 isn't all that bad, and I'm in favor of it generally, but it is no magic bullet.)

Do we know that the .2 channels will be different? For music, I'm sure any discs encoded for 11.2 (yeah right) will be mono for the forseeable future, and in movies, it'll only be used for brief effects, anyway.

 

[Prozakk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by virometal /img/forum/go_quote.gif No kidding. Thanks for the great post! I can see the purist's giving a big to the whole idea. But let's say the Yamaha algorithm is a good one and the system is professionally set-up...for Wodgy and Prozakk, let's say top tier speakers are used from a 11.2 high end seperate's system. Anyone interested then? I doubt there intention is to plan for some upcoming media. The company's always been DSP loco as an audiophile might say! -- My home theater/surround audio set-up is in my profile. While I'm not one for waving my system around, it might meet your expectations; maybe not. If my avatar offends you, my PM box is always open! -- I think this stuff's cool and enjoy the opinions!

I listened to the whole B&W line-up, and I didn't like them for the type music I listen to. Too mellow.

Avatar...I so look forward to Texas kicking butt again this year.

Dual/Tri/Quad subs....I prefer to stack subs. Much easier to make corrections to the sound if it's in 1 location. Plus the extra SPL is good too. Equalization can be your friend.

 

[virometal]

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Originally Posted by ooheadsoo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do we know that the .2 channels will be different? .

The demonstration Audioholics is pushing describes dual stereo subwoofers.

 

[Listen2this1]

As being a home audio guy just now getting into the headphone hobby, I can explain to you some of the benefits of having multiple LFE's. First though .2 is a term that I do not understand, the .1 in 5.1-7.1 means a driver that will produce 1/10 of the frequency range of 20 to 20k. So I guess that they made up a new term. If Yamaha and other companies do this allows the two subwoofers to be independently controled this can be a benefit. 20-200hz are some of the easiest frequencies to have problems, so phase control can be helpful. Oddly enough I would say that 1 out of 20 subwoofers that a consumer installs are done properly. So if this can help users set up the equiptment that they spend alot of money on, then it is cool.

Be on the lookout for a over head center channel type speaker. This is the largest gap in a home theater system.

 

[ooheadsoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prozakk /img/forum/go_quote.gif I prefer to stack subs. Much easier to make corrections to the sound if it's in 1 location. Plus the extra SPL is good too. Equalization can be your friend.

The paper is referring to seating a large area, which EQ can't cover.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Listen2this1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Be on the lookout for a over head center channel type speaker. This is the largest gap in a home theater system.

Yeah, it would be interesting to see some floor or overhead speakers being used for complete sound immersion, even if it's just for effects--imagine a cartoon character bouncing around a room or something.

SilverTrumpet999 is right... This would be an acoustical nightmare not recommended for people without proper measuring equipment and acoustic treatment solutions. Then again, so is 5.1, or any high-end two-channel system, really. Just much more complicated with 11.2 channels.

I wouldn't consider buying it for its 11.2 capability. It has an amplifier section that likely rivals some separates in quality, and one of Burr-Brown's top-of-the-line DACs (PCM1792 as used in the RX-Z9, or better). Those are good enough reasons to wait until used models come down to reasonable prices. After all, the RX-Z9 can be had for under $1,500 used.

 

[SilverTrumpet999]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Listen2this1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif As being a home audio guy just now getting into the headphone hobby, I can explain to you some of the benefits of having multiple LFE's. First though .2 is a term that I do not understand, the .1 in 5.1-7.1 means a driver that will produce 1/10 of the frequency range of 20 to 20k. So I guess that they made up a new term.

Nope; that is not what the .1 means. 5.1 implies there are actually 6 channels - 5 are the standard speakers and the one is a LFE or low-frequency effect. The LFE is a separate channel and does not imply that it is intended to reproduce 1/10 of the sonic space.

If that were true, the sub would be tasked with covering from 20 up to (20000-20)/10 = 1998 Hz or ~2 kHz! This is approximately where tweeters are crossed over to from midrange woofers - subs generally max out around 100-150 Hz, accounting for 0.5% or 1/200 of the sonic space. Nevermind that it is better to let larger main speakers go as low as they can before crossing over to the sub, so most cross over even lower. Also, any surround preamp/receiver worth it's weight in scrap these days has a LFE high pass adjustment, further emphasizing the fact that the .1 does not mean a specific region of the frequency spectrum.

Check this wikipedia link for a good explanation of surround sound, and what everything really means. Actually, after reading that article I'm surprised Yamaha decided to go with their own spec rather than using THX's 10.2; the speaker placements are quite different between them and I doubt this 11.2 would play nice with a THX 10.2 source... the last thing we need is ANOTHER format war!

So to sum up: The .2 does directly imply two subwoofers, as it indicates two separate LFE channels are present.

 

[ooheadsoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverTrumpet999 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nope; that is not what the .1 means. 5.1 implies there are actually 6 channels - 5 are the standard speakers and the one is a LFE or low-frequency effect. The LFE is a separate channel and does not imply that it is intended to reproduce 1/10 of the sonic space. If that were true, the sub would be tasked with covering from 20 up to (20000-20)/10 = 1998 Hz or ~2 kHz! This is approximately where tweeters are crossed over to from midrange woofers - subs generally max out around 100-150 Hz, accounting for 0.5% or 1/200 of the sonic space. Nevermind that it is better to let larger main speakers go as low as they can before crossing over to the sub, so most cross over even lower. Also, any surround preamp/receiver worth it's weight in scrap these days has a LFE high pass adjustment, further emphasizing the fact that the .1 does not mean a specific region of the frequency spectrum. Check this wikipedia link for a good explanation of surround sound, and what everything really means. Actually, after reading that article I'm surprised Yamaha decided to go with their own spec rather than using THX's 10.2; the speaker placements are quite different between them and I doubt this 11.2 would play nice with a THX 10.2 source... the last thing we need is ANOTHER format war! So to sum up: The .2 does directly imply two subwoofers, as it indicates two separate LFE channels are present.

It's logarithmic, so 1/10 is about right. Closer to 2/10, usually. I think.

Anyway, 2 subs, 2 separate lfe channels, doesn't mean that the content on each channel will be all that different. In any case, I don't think it much matters. No, it's no magic bullet, especially if the content is different, but 2 is still better than 1!

 

[Listen2this1]

Actually silvertrumpe999t let me clarify the terms I was talking about. Sometimes it is hard for me to put my thoughts into words. We both agree that the frequency response is 20hz to 20khz that the industry uses as a standard. 20khz being the highest, 10 octaves down will give you a frequency of 19.53125 rounded off is, lets say 20. So the bottom of the ten octaves will be the 1 of the 10.

 

[gz76]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prozakk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Dual/Tri/Quad subs....I prefer to stack subs. Much easier to make corrections to the sound if it's in 1 location.

Technically speaking, if they're stacked then they're not in the same location!

 

[Prozakk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Does anyone seriously want all that? What kind of mindset wants all that?

Yes. Mine.

 

[nibiyabi]

I'm not a surround-sound guy (may do it someday when I'm a homeowner and I happen to have it in my designated movie-watching room, with my stereo setup in the listening room), but one thing I've never understood is the center channel. Why is it there? What's wrong with allowing the two main speakers to exhibit a little soundstage?

 

[infinitesymphony]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nibiyabi /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not a surround-sound guy (may do it someday when I'm a homeowner and I happen to have it in my designated movie-watching room, with my stereo setup in the listening room), but one thing I've never understood is the center channel. Why is it there? What's wrong with allowing the two main speakers to exhibit a little soundstage?

It's possible to have a phantom center, which is what you describe, but then there's usually no way to control the width of the sound. Also, it only works if you're sitting in the sweet spot between the two speakers. Center channel speakers are usually designed to create the "center dialogue" effect for all listeners in the room. The two front speakers do have some dialogue, especially if characters are off-center, but they also provide most of the music, sound effects, and front ambience.