[Acrobat77]

Here's a great thread on the Roon forum in which they explain their views (they even admit feeling contempt to it ) on uPnP/DLNA: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/whats-wrong-with-upnp/2101

 

[rb2013]

  Yes, I agree. I understand John Swensons theory and those of people like Rob Watts, Gordon Rankin etc. In my view I believe them when they say it all comes down to feeding the DAC the lowest noise signal using the highest quality clocks possible. Clean power, internal ground planes and proper isolation between the different domains is extremely important and all this goes for the internal circuits of the DAC itself just as well.
 
What I meant was that up to today I can't really understand why the USB input of the Devialet outperforms the ethernet input. It should be better but just isn't. Of course this must be because of the internal design of both interfaces though both are part of the same internal inferface card. But mind you, I no longer feel the need to understand, I've accepted it's true in my system, to my ears (though other confirm/have similar experiences) so am just glad I found other options that improved SQ without the direct need of buying a new DAC.
 
Regarding clean AC I also agree with that. I use a separate AC circuit (shared earth unfortunately) and employ a PS Audio P3 power plant (230V) which is powerful enough to power all the stuff and even my sub without noticing any constraints in dynamics.

+1 I love to learn about the theory and design - feeds my inner geekhood.  But in the end it's my ears I trust.
 
One point on the REDNET 3 - when I had it in my office system (Class A Tube Hybrid amp (Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil Recapping), Ref 3a Dulcet BE monitors.  I could hear a definite difference over a very decent USB chain.
 
But it was in my main system running the very transparent Maggie 1.6QR's that the differences really stood out.  So my point on a very resolving system the SQ improvement from AES67 (as opposed to USB well done) just really stands out.

 

[rb2013]

  Hi RB
 
It's my understanding that ROON uses RAAT protocol, - which is a layer 3 protocol over UDP/UTP. It is not DLNA/UPnP
 
Not making any judgments about SQ, - I have no experience with Roon or AES67... I trust your testing & analyses.

Yes, Roon RAAT is the old Apple Airplay - a nonDNLA UpNP protocol.  And promising.
 
But history has shown expense propirtary stds will not grow into wide acceptance.  A niche market then seem to fade away or recede into the backgorund (Squeeze Box).
 
So RAAT or no RAAT - a $500 player will always have a strong headwind to acceptance

 

[rb2013]

   
Actually I think it is exactly that. With respect the network streaming capability of Roon is completely irrelevant as we would not be using that function of it.
 
When you say PC > Rednet > Dac
 
What I think you actually mean is:
 
PC running Player X > DVS on that PC > Rednet > Dac
 
If you were running Roon as your player it would simply be:
 
PC running Roon > DVS on that PC > Rednet > Dac
 
So no different to using any other player....

Well yes - except you are paying $500 for a player per machine.  For me that would be $1000 - a machine at home and one at work.
 
So that is a difference to me...

 

[rb2013]

 
Nope! Roon doesn't do/support UPnP, they "hate" the protocol as much as we do (and Alex Crespi who you've quoted a lot). Again, they've developped their own protocol which is RAAT.
 
There's so many DAC's/DDC's out there that don't support Roon. Devialet for example doesn't even seem to want to consider it. People that want to use Roon would simply have to accept they can't use it with their current device so don't use it or switch to a different device that does support it. You can't really blame the DDC maker like Sonore, they probably designed the Signature Rendu before Roon existed/got "traction".

But again you are locked into an expensive closed proprietary system.  If some great open source player comes along - to bad RATT with be Rats to you.
 
That's my point.  A great business model to monetize what is other wise free or very low cost. 
 
But if Roon-RATT is so universal and easy peasy plug and play - that'll be a piece of cake to use with the REDNET - as some keep claiming.
How come it can't work with Sonore's own totl device??  Which does DNLA/UpNP?  Does Tidal, etc...
 
If Roon-RATT (plus the bridge thing) is so plug and play  - can't Sonore just to a quick fix upgrade to the Signature to make it 'Roon-RATT' compatible?
 
Something is rotten in Denmark...and it's not the cheese...
 
Anyway you guys are free to spend hundreds on your Roon player- it ain't for me.  My music collection is far to large for their UI.  And if I want artist info or liner notes. My Asus tablet and wiki are ready to fill me in (and a lot more information and links then Roon provides) - free of charge.

 

[Acrobat77]

 
+1 I love to learn about the theory and design - feeds my inner geekhood.  But in the end it's my ears I trust.
 
One point on the REDNET 3 - when I had it in my office system (Class A Tube Hybrid amp (Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil Recapping), Ref 3a Dulcet BE monitors.  I could hear a definite difference over a very decent USB chain.
 
But it was in my main system running the very transparent Maggie 1.6QR's that the differences really stood out.  So my point on a very resolving system the SQ improvement from AES67 (as opposed to USB well done) just really stands out.

 
Same here, there's a geek or nerd whatever anyone wants to call me inside of me too.
 
I believe you/you guys that the Rednet sounds great. I've actually been really close to ordering a Rednet D16 AES thanks to you guys here! But decided to wait a bit, the microRendu has only been in my system for three weeks and the PSU I searched and bought for it hasn't even arrived yet! Also there's a firmware update coming this month for the Mutec MC-3+ USB which Mutec claims will noticably improve SQ through better re-clocking (IIRC) algorithms.

To be honest I was also very disappointed today reading the Rednets don't automatically switch between different sample rates when fed by DVS. This for me it, as someone called it, indeed a deal breaker. I do understand it though, being a pro-audio device (though the Mutec does it and it also is a pro-audio device of course. ).

Perhaps I'll revisit the subject later, going to enjoy the current system for a while first.

 

[rb2013]

   
Same here, there's a geek or nerd whatever anyone wants to call me inside of me too.
 
I believe you/you guys that the Rednet sounds great. I've actually been really close to ordering a Rednet D16 AES thanks to you guys here! But decided to wait a bit, the microRendu has only been in my system for three weeks and the PSU I searched and bought for it hasn't even arrived yet! Also there's a firmware update coming this month for the Mutec MC-3+ USB which Mutec claims will noticably improve SQ through better re-clocking (IIRC) algorithms.

To be honest I was also very disappointed today reading the Rednets don't automatically switch between different sample rates when fed by DVS. This for me it, as someone called it, indeed a deal breaker. I do understand it though, being a pro-audio device (though the Mutec does it and it also is a pro-audio device of course. ).

Perhaps I'll revisit the subject later, going to enjoy the current system for a while first.

Well for me the SR rate change is a non-issue.  The SQ on the other hand the best by a mile over any USB I have owned or heard (and boy that is a lot) And rather then have to spend thousands on a multi output LPS or a thousand on a music player - I can add a Mutec 3+ as a simple spdif reclocker for $800 and take the REDNET's already amazing SQ (already crushing the very best USB I could construct) to a whole other level.
 
Enjoy!

 

 

[Albrecht]

 So RAAT or no RAAT - a $500 player will always have a strong headwind to acceptance

 
Yep.
 
I totally agree, and I dislike the "software/Apps model' that high end audio digital file playback designers are foisting us all into: (buy expensive software, become the company's QA dept., constantly charge for updates). 
LMS is free, Roon, Amarra, Audiorvana, Pure Music, all crazy prices.
 
Great that Dante/AES works on MACs, - but what do I do about a software player? Before my MacMini died, I used Pure Music, - no way am I EVER going to purchase ANYTHING from them again. I also cannot, & will not bring a PC into my home running a Microsoft OS.
 
With ROON, I can install ROON Server on my NAS, - and it'll perform better than it would from the MAC in the basement running Roon Core.
 
Question: is there good, free, software that will allow me to play music from the NAS drive, on the downstairs MAC, via AES67 to a Rednet 3?
 
Cheers,

 

[rb2013]

   
I just want to add that I'm not a crazed Roon fanboy. I tried it and was very impressed overrall, especially with the level and rate of software development and responsiveness to customer queries and feature requests which in my experience is pretty unparalled in the audiophile world.
But in the end I decided the more "normal" player interface was more to my liking. Either way, there's a free 14-day trial for anyone to test it and see if it suits them.
 
I just wanted to correct the impression you gave that Roon either wouldn't work or would be much more complicated to use with Rednet, which I don't feel would be the case. The network topology would be exactly the same as with any other player software.

Well for me too - with near 3000 Redbook Albums alone  - the UI of Roon is pretty  - but just to unwieldy.  Not crazy for the meta data search function.
 
I can find any artist in my collection, and a list of their albums, in seconds - or just scan through a list of all Jazz or all Fusion Jazz, or all Trio Jazz in seconds, etc...
 
Still not sold on the easy plug and play nature of using Roon with REDNET.  But I'm sure someone will try it (and I believe we have a WIN2012 pioneer as well).
 
So we'll see.  I hope you are right - for the sake of those who spent their money on Roon and want to try AOIP.

 

[rb2013]

   
Yep.
 
I totally agree, and I dislike the "software/Apps model' that high end audio digital file playback designers are foisting us all into: (buy expensive software, become the company's QA dept., constantly charge for updates). 
LMS is free, Roon, Amarra, Audiorvana, Pure Music, all crazy prices.
 
Great that Dante/AES works on MACs, - but what do I do about a software player? Before my MacMini died, I used Pure Music, - no way am I EVER going to purchase ANYTHING from them again. I also cannot, & will not bring a PC into my home running a Microsoft OS.
 
With ROON, I can install ROON Server on my NAS, - and it'll perform better than it would from the MAC in the basement running Roon Core.
 
Question: is there good, free, software that will allow me to play music from the NAS drive, on the downstairs MAC, via AES67 to a Rednet 3?
 
Cheers,

I believe Dante can do Multi-Cast over a LAN.  So use JR or Foobar or whatever works on a MAC.
 
Or maybe Roon-RATT works with the REDNET 3?  We are in the nether regions of space here folks - not much to navigate from.  We are charting new ground.

 

[Acrobat77]

 
But again you are locked into an expensive closed proprietary system.  If some great open source player comes along - to bad RATT with be Rats to you.
 
That's my point.  A great business model to monetize what is other wise free or very low cost. 
 
But is Roon-RATT is so universal and easy peasy plug and play - that'll be a piece of cake to use with the REDNET - as some keep claiming.
How come it can't work with Sonore's own totl device??  Which does DNLA/UpNP?  Does Tidal, etc...
 
If Roon-RATT (plus the bridge thing) is so plug and play  - can't Sonore just to a quick fix upgrade to the Signature to make it 'Roon-RATT' compatible?
 
Something is rotten in Denmark...and it's not the cheese...

True, something new and great, even free could come along, that's the gamble everyone has to take, or not. The same happens with all these USB gizmo's which are now perhaps going to be replaced by Dante hardware (although of course these still have resale value while software does not). And yes, they could even go out of business as well. Let's just hope it doesn't happen. To me they're fresh and 'welcome', good for competition. Considering the speed they're currently developing at I think many great things will still come.
 
I was sceptical as well but since using it I'm "hooked" and don't want anything else. To be honest I'm still in my 2 month trial (using the coupon that came with the Jitterbug) but I will surely convert the trial to lifetime.

The costs are very relative of course. The amounts of money spent by many audiophiles make these costs pale in comparison. My 0.8+0.2m Curious USB cables are even more expensive and I'm sure many can think of similar examples. Anyway, I consider it a very subjective thing. We're all free to choose the things we like, it's "only" music/hobby, no need for criticising others on these choices (not saying you are BTW).

Well, with a Rednet you won't be using RAAT. It's simply ASIO there or whatever output you currently use with your favorite player (WASAPI/Core Audio/...?) since DVS is a virtual soundcard. So you're not really 'locked in' in that regard.
 
You can't use Roon with a Sonore Rendu Signature because this Sonore is an external device that only supports the uPnP protocol. Roon does not (not yet?) support uPnP. I'm assuming that Sonore has probably researched if the Signature Rendu internal hardware/software architecture could support the requirements to become a Roon Ready endpoint. Perhaps this isn't possible because of hardware constraints or other reasons. Only Sonore themselves can of course give the actual, real reason(s). I don't think/can't believe that they could have other "customer unfriendly" reasons to not support it.
 
OK, going to do something else now. I need to be more "modest" and quiet on a first day on a new forum!

 

[Albrecht]

 We are in the nether regions of space here folks - not much to navigate from.  We are charting new ground.

 
Yes,
 
And worth repeating, - THANK YOU SO MUCH for going on this discovery mission, - and thank you for reporting back on all your work.
 
Much gratitude!!!

 

[rb2013]

 
True, something new and great, even free could come along, that's the gamble everyone has to take, or not. The same happens with all these USB gizmo's which are now perhaps going to be replaced by Dante hardware (although of course these still have resale value while software does not).

I can sell these USB gizmos - as not everyone will want to spend so much on their audio as a REDNET costs.
 
Try selling your Roon
 

 OK, going to do something else now. I need to be more "modest" and quiet on a first day on a new forum!

No not at all - your input is valued and welcome.  I enjoy the debate - even if I get a bit snarky at times - just ignore that.
 
With every one of these debates I learn a lot -and so do others I'm sure.

 

[mhamel]

 
Well for me the SR rate change is a non-issue.  The SQ on the other hand the best by a mile over any USB I have owned or heard (and boy that is a lot) And rather then have to spend thousands on a multi output LPS or a thousand on a music player - I can add a Mutec 3+ as a simple spdif reclocker for $800 and take the REDNET's already amazing SQ (already crushing the very best USB I could construct) to a whole other level.
 
Enjoy!

 

 
Likewise here, which is why I never tested it out once I had it set up.
 
I sent mail to my rep at Sweetwater, asking if he knows or can ask one of his techs what (if anything) can be done to get the RN3 or D16 to switch sample rates without manual intervention. There may not be a way, but there could also be something we're missing.

 

[Acrobat77]

 
Well for me the SR rate change is a non-issue.  The SQ on the other hand the best by a mile over any USB I have owned or heard (and boy that is a lot) And rather then have to spend thousands on a multi output LPS or a thousand on a music player - I can add a Mutec 3+ as a simple spdif reclocker for $800 and take the REDNET's already amazing SQ (already crushing the very best USB I could construct) to a whole other level.
 
Enjoy!

 

Thanks, you too! And money is just money (as long as it comes out of the "disposable part" of an income of course and not the part you need to feed your children with ). I think you must have spent a lot in trying all these USB gizmo's and other 'USB uber chain' things too. I may end up with some Ravenna/Dante device in the future as well. And the PH PSU (which cost less than a thousand since I got a great deal on it ) may then still power some other component(s) in my system and if not I'll simply sell it again, simple!