[rb2013]

  I was batting around the idea of using usb over ethernet a while ago.  I'm going to try it out now.  The clincher for me, which is something I should have recognized a while back, is that this will allow me to move my media server to another room in my basement completely away from my audio system.  I wired my house (well the upstairs office and the basement) with cat6 so it would be easy enough.   If theres no difference then there is always ebay.  If it does work then I will have a ton of stuff for sale (HD plex linear PS, HD plex 250 watt DC, Uptone Regen, Schiit wyrd etc) stuff you only need because you are trying to shield your dac from "bad computer stuff".
 
Maybe we could break this discussion off into a new thread.

Yes - that's my thinking!  Get rid of the PPA V2 and the JB at least.  Well let me give it a listen - then start the thread if there is any fruit there.  Like you say - even a tie would be a logistical win. They should be here in a week.  You see the results here first.
 
Hoping to not need the new uber Regen at a min  - with it's galvanic isolation - or the $300 Intona.

 

[ccschua]

Isnt that ethernet with collision detection will defeat the purpose of "asyhncronous" ?
 
I believe every item should do the trick, removing the PPA V2 will result in different sound. whether good of bad will need to find out. for me I still stick with the PPA V3.

 

[mhamel]

Thunderbolt is great, but unfortunately I think it needs much wider general adoption before most companies will invest the time and money into consumer audio devices based on it. The pro audio world is another story - there are a bunch of Thunderbolt interfaces out there, but most are very expensive and I haven't seen many that will output AES.
 
Another option if you have a source computer with PCI or PCIe slots would be a pro audio sound card with native AES output. Something along the lines of http://www.digigram.com/products/product_infos.php?prod_key=14950. Likewise, not cheap, but eliminates any interim conversion steps, and probably a toss-up cost-wise when you factor in all of the tweaking, add-ons, etc. that come along with trying to get the best out of a USB connection.
 
Yet another option - if you have a source with a Thunderbolt port but no PCIe slot internally, you can also go this route: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1133177-REG/sonnet_echo_exp_se1_echo_se1_sng_slt_tb2_to_pcie.html  along with a card like the one mentioned above.
 
--
 
The PS Audio device is different from the inexpensive Cat5 USB extenders in that it's actually working over Gigabit Ethernet, so it will run through routers/switches and co-exist with regular network traffic, where the inexpensive extenders are just extending using Cat5/Cat6 cable, but not using ethernet topology to do so. Looking at the device he's holding in the video, it appears to be a version of this device: http://www.icron.com/products/oem/usb-extenders/lan/usb-2-0-rg2304ge-lan/ with a slightly different faceplate. He didn't show the second device so there's no indication if they're using a single port version or the four port. It is currently available as either a Startech or ATEN branded product, and possibly others.   Here's a link to the ATEN-branded version: http://eshop.aten-usa.com/products/ueh4002-4-port-cat-5-usb-2-0-extender-1?variant=16855544389

 

[ginetto61]

I don't think anyone listened to that Paul McGowan from PS Audio - Youtube clip.  It was only posted yesterday.
WATCH STARTING AT Min 4!!  At Min 5 "he says - knocked the Regen's socks off!"  That is an amazing statement!  
At min 6 he explains why he thinks this works so well for USB audio.   At min 7 he says it doesn't matter what USB cable you use to feed it! 
They all sound the same - this from a guy who sells High End USB cables!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUl9fJNyfbo 

 
Hi and thanks a lot for the link.   
Yes i have been struck by the same words and also something like the best sound they have experienced using usb connection 

They say June as possible date for availability.  I wonder about the price.  But i tend to trust the Man.  Great products from Ps Audio always.
Regards, gino 

 

[rb2013]

  Isnt that ethernet with collision detection will defeat the purpose of "asyhncronous" ?
 
I believe every item should do the trick, removing the PPA V2 will result in different sound. whether good of bad will need to find out. for me I still stick with the PPA V3.

Well good point there - it looks like the USB to Ethernet converters just 'move' the data for a Async USB packet to a TCP/IP packet protocol that then just gets reconverted.   With galvanic isolation in between.
 
The collision problem is now solved by the new TCP/IP std.  Anyway this is a single purpose ethernet conncection - so maybe the 'collision detection' is disabled.
 
See the warning on the back of this Ethernet USB extender box - 

 
More info on Ethernet links
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/sotm2/1.html
 
I guess when it get here: 1) it will either - work or not. 2) sound better - not.
 
Worse case I sell the $160 isolator that I paid $50 for the same and sell the USB extender for $50.  So I'm out $30.
 
I have these two cables coming one a CAT7 and one a CAT6
One was $3 and the other $9

 

[rb2013]

  Thunderbolt is great, but unfortunately I think it needs much wider general adoption before most companies will invest the time and money into consumer audio devices based on it. The pro audio world is another story - there are a bunch of Thunderbolt interfaces out there, but most are very expensive and I haven't seen many that will output AES.
 
Another option if you have a source computer with PCI or PCIe slots would be a pro audio sound card with native AES output. Something along the lines of http://www.digigram.com/products/product_infos.php?prod_key=14950. Likewise, not cheap, but eliminates any interim conversion steps, and probably a toss-up cost-wise when you factor in all of the tweaking, add-ons, etc. that come along with trying to get the best out of a USB connection.
 
Yet another option - if you have a source with a Thunderbolt port but no PCIe slot internally, you can also go this route: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1133177-REG/sonnet_echo_exp_se1_echo_se1_sng_slt_tb2_to_pcie.html  along with a card like the one mentioned above.
 
--
 
The PS Audio device is different from the inexpensive Cat5 USB extenders in that it's actually working over Gigabit Ethernet, so it will run through routers/switches and co-exist with regular network traffic, where the inexpensive extenders are just extending using Cat5/Cat6 cable, but not using ethernet topology to do so. Looking at the device he's holding in the video, it appears to be a version of this device: http://www.icron.com/products/oem/usb-extenders/lan/usb-2-0-rg2304ge-lan/ with a slightly different faceplate. He didn't show the second device so there's no indication if they're using a single port version or the four port. It is currently available as either a Startech or ATEN branded product, and possibly others.   Here's a link to the ATEN-branded version: http://eshop.aten-usa.com/products/ueh4002-4-port-cat-5-usb-2-0-extender-1?variant=16855544389

Well my hope is that TB3 and the new Intel and MS support - along with a USB-C connector will push this into the forfront.  Already seeing WIN MBs with TB3 - as this will also mostly be used for large RAID or ext HD's.
The Focusrite Clarett Pre4 for $600 has SPDIF output but not AES - and a whole bunch of other stuff we don't need.  So a simpler (Chinese made) TB3 DDC with totl clocks could be just as inexpensive as the F-1.
 
http://www.audiomediainternational.com/recording/feature-investigating-interface-protocols/04655

 

“The main advantages of Ethernet-based formats are the ability to run much longer distances between devices; being able to take audio signals from one source and route to many destinations; and sample accurate clocking from one master device on the network. Thunderbolt 2 and USB 3 offer the ability to connect to Ethernet, so would also be compatible with networked audio devices. With the introduction of AES67, all of these audio-over-IP formats will talk to each other, so enabling one harmonious compatible format.”​

 
For me a dedicated single connection 1GB Ethernet USB extender would work fine - I don't need to run it on a busy work or home LAN.  He misquoted that CAT5/6 is automatically galvanically isolated - it's not - but a reasonable priced GI can be inserted into the line.  And these are 'medical grade' meaning - well tested to avoid killing someone and a huge lawsuit.
 
What I like about the one I posted is a 5VDC powerport  - so an iPower could do the job - or a LPS if needed.

 

[abartels]

 

  Isnt that ethernet with collision detection will defeat the purpose of "asyhncronous" ?
 
I believe every item should do the trick, removing the PPA V2 will result in different sound. whether good of bad will need to find out. for me I still stick with the PPA V3.

Well good point there - it looks like the USB to Ethernet converters just 'move' the data for a Async USB packet to a TCP/IP packet protocol that then just gets reconverted.   With galvanic isolation in between.
 
The collision problem is now solved by the new TCP/IP std.  Anyway this is a single purpose ethernet conncection - so maybe the 'collision detection' is disabled.
 
See the warning on the back of this Ethernet USB extender box - 

 
More info on Ethernet links
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/sotm2/1.html
 
I guess when it get here: 1) it will either - work or not. 2) sound better - not.
 
Worse case I sell the $160 isolator that I paid $50 for the same and sell the USB extender for $50.  So I'm out $30.
 
I have these two cables coming one a CAT7 and one a CAT6
One was $3 and the other $9

 
I see UTP and STP. Could be UTP sounds better than STP because of it's missing shield, but also could go among the other side, again, tricky, to shield or not to shield.... that sounds familiar 

 

[rb2013]

   
I see UTP and STP. Could be UTP sounds better than STP because of it's missing shield, but also could go among the other side, again, tricky, to shield or not to shield.... that sounds familiar 

I thought to get one of each and try them both - cheap enough.
 
PS I should have said new audio-over-IP std - AES67 - not TCP/IP std.

 

[abartels]

 

   
I see UTP and STP. Could be UTP sounds better than STP because of it's missing shield, but also could go among the other side, again, tricky, to shield or not to shield.... that sounds familiar 

I thought to get one of each and try them both - cheap enough.
 
PS I should have said new audio-over-IP std - AES67 - not TCP/IP std.

 
Try to avoid flat UTP cables since they are not twisted, which is needed (twisted +/- pairs) for best signal integrity. 

 

[wakka992]

  I just ordered this little guy to give a try - from wiki:
 
http://www.amazon.com/Ethernet-Extender-Adapter-Repeater-Booster/dp/B00CCWZIZG?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00
 

USB 2.0 to UPT Cats5 Cat5e Cats6 Rj45 Lan Ethernet Extender Adapter Repeater Booster

 
Now I just found this little fellow on Ebay for $50

Baaske Medical Ethernet Network Isolator​

 
 
http://industrialcomponent.com/baaske/mi1005.html

 
Hi rb2013, I think I'll follow you on this one project!
 
I was just looking for a USB 2.0 galvanic isolation devices, and this USB to Ethernet to USB it's a wonderful discovery!
 
Looking around in EU website, I found USB galvanic isolation devices only up to 12MBit/s... that's a little short for USB 2.0 audio.
 
So this USB to Ethernet to USB would be perfect!!
 
I'll order myself a Baaske Medical Ethernet Network Isolator, now I only need to find a USB to Ethernet range extender...

 

[rb2013]

   
Try to avoid flat UTP cables since they are not twisted, which is needed (twisted +/- pairs) for best signal integrity. 

Thanks!  I'll order up a CAT6 twisted.  I only need a short distance so they are very cheap

 

[rb2013]

   
Hi rb2013, I think I'll follow you on this one project!
 
I was just looking for a USB 2.0 galvanic isolation devices, and this USB to Ethernet to USB it's a wonderful discovery!
 
Looking around in EU website, I found USB galvanic isolation devices only up to 12MBit/s... that's a little short for USB 2.0 audio.
 
So this USB to Ethernet to USB would be perfect!!
 
I'll order myself a Baaske Medical Ethernet Network Isolator, now I only need to find a USB to Ethernet range extender...

Well of course there is the Intona - hotly debated I might add.  But the feedback has been unverisaly positive in terms of SQ.  Now it has some drawbacks in my view - like the el-cheapo SiTime clocks for reclocking - and high cost (like $300).  Also no ext power port (that can be solved by a USB power breakout cable).  But can see the advantages of this route - at least in theory - keep away from the difficult task of galvanic isolating a USB stream - and having to use dirty circuits to do that.  Just 'move' the USB stream closer to the DDC with galvanic isloation in between!  Maybe avoid the need of a 1M or .8M high end USB cable?  Just a hard adpater or a Curious 200mm USB link type cable.
 
IF this works and that's a BIG if - it could save alot of money on gear.
 
http://intona.eu/en/products

 

[ciphercomplete]

I just remembered why i didnt try this out last year. $500 for an extender lol. I may still try it if i can find one used. I already have a LAN isolator.

Do we reslly need gigabit? I have a straight shot of cat6 from my switch to my mediaserver, there is no other traffic there.

 

[mhamel]

 
Well my hope is that TB3 and the new Intel and MS support - along with a USB-C connector will push this into the forfront.  Already seeing WIN MBs with TB3 - as this will also mostly be used for large RAID or ext HD's.
The Focusrite Clarett Pre4 for $600 has SPDIF output but not AES - and a whole bunch of other stuff we don't need.  So a simpler (Chinese made) TB3 DDC with totl clocks could be just as inexpensive as the F-1.
 
http://www.audiomediainternational.com/recording/feature-investigating-interface-protocols/04655
 
For me a single connection 1GB Ethernet USB extender would work fine - I don't need to run it on a busy work or home LAN.  He misquoted that CAT5/6 is automatically galvanically isolated - it's not - but a reasonable priced GI can be inserted into the line.  And these are 'medical grade' meaning - well tested to avoid killing someone and a huge lawsuit.
 
What I like about the one I posted is a 5VDC powerport  - so an iPower could do the job - or a LPS is needed.

 
 
He is correct in that actual "ethernet" connections are transformer coupled, which is part of the Ethernet spec. For an extender that just extends over Cat5/6 cable, it doesn't need to follow that and can transmit/receive over the cable in whatever format the designer of the device chooses. 
 
The device you ordered is not a 1GB Ethernet connection. It is USB over Cat5/6 cable, which is not the same. (Cat5/6/7 just refers to the specification standard that the cable is designed to meet.) It still may achieve the same goal, but technically it is a different device. Definitely worth a shot - it may even work better with less latency than going over an Ethernet network.
 
Along those lines, with standard Ethernet over Cat5/6 UTP cable, there is no shield to isolate. The data lines are isolated by the transformers at each end of the connection that are built into the NIC and/or switch. When using STP, afaik there is no isolation for the shield. That medical isolation device will isolate both, which may or may not be a factor. As it is designed for an Ethernet network, using the cable pairs that are standard for Ethernet connections, it may not work with an extender that simply uses the cable as a signal carrier. 
 
Either way, it will be interesting to see how it works out.
 
   -Mike

 

[Albrecht]

Hi RB,
 
I asked on EBAY, nothing in the Literature says that Longens are gigabit. I guess it might not matter. Right now, - I'm running two TPLink fiber FMCs with a 10GB cable & a couple of Rosewill Cat7s. This should provide isolation, - but at $33 for a pair of these guys: they are worth trying with another run of CAT6 that I already have installed.
 
One of the great things for those people who have USB DACs, (they may be forgetting that with these, - they can pull their noisy computer from the audio rack.