[wolfen68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpkin72 Until the X5 60GB is available, I think only the iRiver H140 + Rockbox. But if you don't have one already, it'll be easier for you to wait for the iAudio...

Or, be a pioneer and get a Toshiba drive replacement for your X5L. Not many are doing it now as they are fairly new....but this will become more common in a few months. I think there's at least a 40 gig that will fit.

 

[Chri5peed]

I'm in the middle of doing a test.

I took a Children Of Bodom album in aps mp3 and used the CD to make another copy in apx mp3.
My mp3-player was on its monthly complete discharge and typically the battery has run out, its usually fully charged overnight every day.

So I put them in winamp and switched them all around, listening to them on my crappy soundcard, but any difference should be the same, but my Zen will prove a better differentiator.
This album is about 30% bigger in apx, lol not like FLACs 4.5 times!

They do sound a bit clearer, if they're obviously better on my Zen, its rerip-ahoy!

 

[gorman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheechoz When you listen to the same album, over and over again, because you love it so much, you will know every note and detail, that is coming into your ears, but when all of a sudden, you hear crisper highs, and all around better detail, and sounds you never heard before, I'm pretty sure it's the change, and not a placebo!!

It's funny how everybody gets upset when placebo is mentioned. It's not an insult. Placebo effect is real and it affects human beings. That has been proven scientifically.
Which could not be said about your statements above. And even this is not an insult or anything.

But to state FLAC *destroys* LAME MP3s... well, that's kind of misleading. New users here could believe it blindly and throw away hundreds of megabytes for, probably, nothing. Hence the suggestion to ABX. Which is not an insult, once more.

 

[K2Grey]

First, I would like to point out that everyone is affected by psychology and no one is capable of predicting exactly how it will affect him. You need not have a strong belief that there will be an improvement, in order to be affected by placebo, and there are more psychological effects than placebo.

Now, I don't have a decent rig so my own FLAC/mp3 experiences don't mean jack, however, I would like to submit a few links to old head-fi threads in order to show the power of psychology.

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=133964
Guy claims to hear difference between lossless and WAV. But I don't think anyone would encourage him to encode everything in WAV so he's happier.

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63803
Guy #2 says that LAME aps is noticably worse than iPod and that he can't stand to listen to his music for long and that LAME aps destroys the enjoyment of the music.

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66150
Same guy as before executes a blind test between LAME aps and WAV. He is unable to tell the difference. He is too stubborn to fully admit that he is unable to tell the difference, and after much hard listening, concludes that there is something more satisfying about the WAV files than the LAME files, even if it is very subtle and cannot be determined by blind test. He later finds out he labeled his files wrong and that the ones he was claiming to be more satisfying were the mp3s. In reality the difference in satisfaction came from knowing one was uncompressed and the other was compressed, and not from actual difference in quality to his ears.

Now, the point of this is not to say that LAME is as good as WAV, or that no one can tell the difference, or that people who encode their music in FLAC are weak-minded (since I encode in FLAC myself), but rather to show that the reliability of people's ears isn't much better than the reliability of eyewitness reports.

 

[wanderman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIGtrouble77 One point I do want to make... just because you may not be able to pick out the flac doesn't mean it doesn't sound better to the listener. I really believe that the overall experience is better when playing lossless media. When I listen to a song that I know is lossy, I find myself constantly hearing little artifacts which distracts from the listening experience. Just having the piece of mind that the source is perfect makes listening much more enjoyable.

That is one reason I abx'ed I saw my self doing the same thing, but an abx test assured me that I can't here the difference between my lossless rips and my mp3s. So I can listen to my collection and be assured that my rips may aswell be lossless.

 

[EdipisReks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gorman It's funny how everybody gets upset when placebo is mentioned. It's not an insult. Placebo effect is real and it affects human beings. That has been proven scientifically. Which could not be said about your statements above. And even this is not an insult or anything.

i've never understood why people think it's an insult, either. the human mind is very easy to fool, both externally and internally. there is a reason why drug companies do double blind placebo studies. i've done a double blind with lossy vs. lossless encoding (if you ever want to stress friendships, ask a couple friends to help you do a double blind test; it's tedious). this was done off my PowerBook using an Airport Express running to my no longer owned Corda HA-1 MkII with a pair of Sony CD3000s.

i could usually tell 192 AAC from lossless, i could sometimes tell the difference between 256 AAC and lossless, but i almost never beat chance when the comparison was between 320 AAC and lossless. it's just how it goes. sometimes i was absolutely sure that a track was lossy, only to find out that i was wrong. it doesn't mean anything other than that i'm a fallible human being. i've done single blind tests with Lame MP3s, and i find that it is easier to distinguish between the MP3s and lossless only because i know what audio artifacts to listen for, as MP3 is somewhat distinctive when you know what they sound like. it was still hard with higher bitrate Lame MP3s. i think that the final answer is that the difference between lossy and lossless can be heard in many situations, but we audiophiles tend to make mountains out of molehills.

 

[cheechoz]

I will note, that I am listening to the same song on two seperate X5L's, and the FLAC one is clearly the one I prefer! So be it, to each his own! Also, I would like to note, that the cans that I am using, are the SA5K's, which IMHO, offer the best detail of anything I have ever heard. "Damn, where's the SA5K smiley".

 

[blessingx]

I suspect the insult isn't the suggestion that it's placebo, it's that the implication (both in this thread and similar previous ones) that a difference can't be heard therefore what's being reported HAS to be placebo. Thus the 'certain' comment earlier. Some mention human hearing can't hear the difference (though never cite credible evidence) and more likely the (again) very informative but small (10-20 people) tests where the equipment is never mentioned over at Hydrogen (especially Rjamorim's great tests). Again I don't doubt the majority of differences are placebo, it's just I disagree without more evidence that all is. I guess some would side on caution and ask don't claim you can hear the difference until you've proved it. Maybe, but I'd add don't claim another can't hear the difference unless you can prove that also. Finally as always around here, people confuse what they can or can't hear with everyone else.

 

[LFC_SL]

X5 60gb is out....I've seen enough links @ iaudiophile

Heck its even out here in the UK

 

[wanderman]

I am going to have to agree with blessingx. except for this Quote:

Maybe, but I'd add don't claim another can't hear the difference unless you can prove that also.

This is impossible to do when disccussing lossy soruces. One can make that argument for lossless because it is sonically perfect but with lossy...When someone claims something like that they are asking for evidence, it is merely a ciructous and ambigious way of doing so. I think that meaning is almost implied, because if ones claims have merit wouldn't one defend them? But I find abxing fun... But I need to get some really good reference cans...

 

[davvy]

Quote:

I suspect the insult isn't the suggestion that it's placebo, it's that the implication (both in this thread and similar previous ones) that a difference can't be heard therefore what's being reported HAS to be placebo. Thus the 'certain' comment earlier. Some mention human hearing can't hear the difference (though never cite credible evidence) and more likely the (again) very informative but small (10-20 people) tests where the equipment is never mentioned over at Hydrogen (especially Rjamorim's great tests). Again I don't doubt the majority of differences are placebo, it's just I disagree without more evidence that all is. I guess some would side on caution and ask don't claim you can hear the difference until you've proved it. Maybe, but I'd add don't claim another can't hear the difference unless you can prove that also. Finally as always around here, people confuse what they can or can't hear with everyone else.

OK I have edited my earlier post to read "almost certain". Sorry for any offense caused. I was actually trying to be helpful. I honestly believe that if the OP does some proper testing, he will find that he can't hear a difference on his X5 and will thus be able to fit 4.5 times more music on his player and have longer battery life.

I agree that it there is no absolute proof that no-one can hear any difference. In fact if you dig around on hydrogen audio, there are known samples that you can listen to where there definitely IS a subtle difference - there is a Radiohead track which is in that category (sorry can't remember which one off the top of my head). But if someone makes a statement like Quote:

X5 w/FLAC Destroys Lame MP3!!

without any evidence of some sort of rigourous listening process to back it up, IMHO they are almost certainly a victim of the placebo effect.

 

[vranswer]

I enjoy the liveliness of lossless compression (ALAC on 5G iPod) over LAME API lossy files. Switching back and forth between the two I probably couldn't tell you the difference, but over time listening to music I know well there is just a depth and volume scalability which is audible.

That said, my 320 Kbps lossy files are no slouch and the difference is not really above the radar for nearly all situations. And are all mp3Gained. This has the nice advantage of use of iPod's EQ presets. E4 headphones make terrific use of R&B or Bass Booster preset.

 

[cheechoz]

I want to apologize for using "Destroy" in the title, as the word I should have used is "betters". I understand that many use MP3 as there encoding preference, and have done numerous tests to try and solidify the situation, but I still prefer FLAC!!

 

[Filburt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheechoz For the first time, I am encoding in flac. After years as a devoted EAC/Lame lover, I am making the switch. Of course, the only downfall, is that huge file size. I can get 70 CD's on an X5L 30GB, which isn't really that bad, but a big change from the former. When I loaded my player for the first time, and popped on my E5c's, the music was just so clear and alive, especially the highs! To me, a total turn around from MP3's. What other DAP's support the flac format, and have a bigger HD then the X5? I've heard that there's a 60GB version of the X5, but I don't see it anywhere.

What settings were you using with LAME? Also, did you double-blind test this? It could simply be placebo, depending on what your encoding parameters were with LAME.

 

[Chri5peed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobJohnson X5 w/FLAC Destroys Lame MP3!!

We're talking about DAPs here, is FLAC 4 times better than apx mp3s?

No, therefore I might rather take the fact that the mp3s are that much smaller as a benefit.