[ultrarunner2018]

One more thought:
What about the latency in the DAC? I would assume there is none to speak of in the amp.
Since I do have the MIDI keyboard - whether I can actually play it is another question - latency is an issue. That's why I use the ASIO driver with the UMC202HD.
Latency also matters while watching movies , but maybe not as important as with the keyboard.

I checked Ebay, and did find a couple Schiit products, but either they're very old and beat up, or newer and not really discounted.
And then I would have to worry about the stale tobacco smoke that might have infused the equipment.
Honestly, I would rather just spend the money and buy bran-new. I tend to keep equipment a very long time, so the investment of $400 now isn't really much.

Update: Well, I just talked to Sam Ash. They don't have anything in-store for audition except the ATH-M50's . They would need to special order the HD600 or 650, and charge 15% restocking fee if I want to return them.
But Amazon does sell both the 600 and the 650, and the Sundara, and have a great return policy. So I guess if I really want to audition anything, I would need to purchase several different pair and send back the ones I decide not to keep.
That said, I think what you guys have been saying about the system concept is valid. Why would I want to audition a pair of $400 cans on a $50 AI?
So maybe I would just get the DAC and amp first, or at the same time. Except that it appears Schiit has very long lead-time on everything.
I can get some of their gear on Amazon, but haven't seen the Magnius or Modius.
I just checked Sweetwater, and they don't carry any of the Schiit gear.

 

[Redcarmoose]

As far as latency goes, I don't do too much TV watching but in my system it did fine.......when I did watch TV? Though there was a FPS game player and at most FPS settings he was fine. He did have a super fast refresh rate monitor and said that there was an issue only at the highest setting? Though that is with the Sony TA, that I have.

The Schiit stuff I'm not sure about. Though I would think you're fine? Though it sounds like you're getting the right idea, that it's impossible to test the right headphone with out the right amp..........FIRST.

As far as obtaining the correct equipment, it's definitely a question of patience. When it is the right time, the right gear will somehow show up, I think?

 

[Redcarmoose]

Remember too, I am suggesting stuff that together I haven’t heard. All I’m basically saying is sound is dependent on entire systems, not just the headphone. Also this place is very much about people thinking that they have the best system. So you realize that how could it possibly be that everyone has the best system when everyone has different systems? The key is to get a good amp as well as a good signal to the DAC and explore headphones. I don’t have a clue, not one clue which headphone you’ll like? I don't even know if the Schiit sounds good......but you’ll have to decide all that.

Cheers!

 

[ultrarunner2018]

I think that the Schiit would sound better than my Behringer, even with my ATH-M50X. But at the same time, I have realized that the original recording is the first step where quality may be lost.
For example, I was listening to Mozart's 41st symphony. It's on Delos and it sounds 'muddy'. The highs and mids are 'subdued'.
Then I listened to Mozart 'Sinfonie Concertante - KV 364 in E flat major on Deutche Grammophon. It sounded better.
Finally, I listened to Vivaldi 4 Seasons on Deutche Grammaphon, and it sounded even better.
I guess it's obvious that some recordings are better than others. But what it tells me that when I do decide to 'audition' any equipment, I need to choose the best recording I own, or purchase a hi-def 24-bit recording. That said, I would still need to be assured that the recording I am paying a premium for was actually recorded in such a way that it is 'worthy' of the higher bit depth and rate.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I think that the Schiit would sound better than my Behringer, even with my ATH-M50X. But at the same time, I have realized that the original recording is the first step where quality may be lost.
For example, I was listening to Mozart's 41st symphony. It's on Delos and it sounds 'muddy'. The highs and mids are 'subdued'.
Then I listened to Mozart 'Sinfonie Concertante - KV 364 in E flat major on Deutche Grammophon. It sounded better.
Finally, I listened to Vivaldi 4 Seasons on Deutche Grammaphon, and it sounded even better.
I guess it's obvious that some recordings are better than others. But what it tells me that when I do decide to 'audition' any equipment, I need to choose the best recording I own, or purchase a hi-def 24-bit recording. That said, I would still need to be assured that the recording I am paying a premium for was actually recorded in such a way that it is 'worthy' of the higher bit depth and rate.

Hi res is used by studios for recording and it does seem to get them some “air”. That said 16 bit 44.1 kHz is pretty good for most playback. Your right though recordings vary. There is no standardized protocol for studios to use. So we find ourselves only able to judge recordings by emotion. There is no way to find the original recordings as they were lost in time the moment they were played. The recording may be actually better than the original as it is multiple tracks rearranged to be a new thing. Still it never is exactly like the original thing recorded. All we have is emotional ways of judging recordings. But because everything matters.......the recording does matter. The DAC matters the amp matters and the headphone matters.

The best we can hope for is natural playback that seems acceptable all the time. Within those times recordings are sometimes better and other times lesser but still enjoyable.

In Toslink you do have abilities to play back some hi-res but a limit, going optical. It really depends on the music you listen to. When I do reviews I listen to a lot of 24bit. But in basic listening really I’m 16-44 and hi-res 50/50. I feel that timing and pace are most important, so you get that with a reduction in digital noise from optical. IMO Also you can end-up going USB to see how you like it with the Schiit DAC, which will give you full bit-rate ability.

Here is a video of a guy who has a studio, and you can hear him talk about bit-rates.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I think that the Schiit would sound better than my Behringer, even with my ATH-M50X. But at the same time, I have realized that the original recording is the first step where quality may be lost.
For example, I was listening to Mozart's 41st symphony. It's on Delos and it sounds 'muddy'. The highs and mids are 'subdued'.
Then I listened to Mozart 'Sinfonie Concertante - KV 364 in E flat major on Deutche Grammophon. It sounded better.
Finally, I listened to Vivaldi 4 Seasons on Deutche Grammaphon, and it sounded even better.
I guess it's obvious that some recordings are better than others. But what it tells me that when I do decide to 'audition' any equipment, I need to choose the best recording I own, or purchase a hi-def 24-bit recording. That said, I would still need to be assured that the recording I am paying a premium for was actually recorded in such a way that it is 'worthy' of the higher bit depth and rate.

What we are looking for is naturalness. In playback 16/44.1 lets us judge that natural sound. If ever there is “more” like from a super good recording then yes, it will sound even better. But regular recordings are still going to tell you if all is well in playback. Meaning we are looking for the system that does everything. The frequency response and technicality is so that it does everything. There will always be those special recording and the (few) lesser ones.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Your optimal playback should be able to do all genres and never have you need EQ and basically just do it all. All genres with the fall out of some stuff just sounding slight better due to the recording. Also different systems are better at certain volume levels. Though the best will be perfect at all volumes.

 

[Redcarmoose]

In the end we are not driven by finding just a handful of albums that sound right. All of it sounds right....or at least 90% does?


And with that all should be musical and involving to a point regardless of recording quality.

The thing is playback is a correct and even frequency response all within what sounds natural to you. So there will always be those few bad recordings but 80% should sound great and 10% better that great.

 

[ultrarunner2018]

Interesting vid. I don't even want to venture a guess at what that studio cost him to build.
I would be completely overwhelmed with all the knobs, switches, and dials, let alone the computer interfaces.

As for me, I think I will go for the headphones first, taking the risk that my Behringer UMC202HD will have the power to drive the cans properly.
After reading an in-depth review of 'Best headphones for classical music' on Sound Gear Lab, I may try the Sennheiser HD600.
Interesting note: Amazon prices the HD600's at $399.95, but Sweetwater prices them at $299.00. Nothing in description indicates this is for refurbished or open-box.
Neither Amazon or Sweetwater has them in stock, but Amazon promises delivery by 6/9. Sweetwater does not provide an ETA.
For the price, I think I am going to order them from Sweetwater. I have purchased from them before, and they are very friendly and helpful.

Whether or not my UMC202HD will drive the HD600's remains to be 'heard'. But in case it does not, I suppose I could route the audio from the Behringer to my Onkyo receiver - until I buy something better, like the Schiit Magnius.
I also own a pair of HED Cerwin Vega speakers, but use them only to listen to 'meditation music' while I sleep. I don't like to disturb everyone in the house while listening; my main reason for opting primarily for cans.

So far as the open design of the HD600's, that will not present a problem for me, as I do not plan to use them outside or in any 'quiet' places where sound leakage would be an issue.
Of course I will still have the ATH-M50X, if I still prefer them for rock. But everything I am reading both here and elsewhere leads me to believe that I will enjoy the HD600's for classical music.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Cool!
Sounds like a plan! Funny though, keep in mind the possible ability to scale (with a different amp). Meaning the sound can be one way, yet the HD600 potential is a whole different place....maybe? Also keep in mind that you will need time to adjust to the new sound signature whatever it is. So try and keep them on and even reduce your normal listening volume to do other stuff. Just go about normal activity yet keep the headphones on for about 4 days at lower than normal volume before making any judgement. That will give you time to adjust to them. Also there is a huge HD600 thread and supportive user group here. They may have other recommendations to further you along. As you slowly become acclimated the sound will often go from sounding off and wrong to correct. Often no burn-in has taken place and it’s the same sound but your personal interpretation changes. It’s been a long time since I heard those.

Enjoy!

 

[Redcarmoose]

Interesting vid. I don't even want to venture a guess at what that studio cost him to build.
I would be completely overwhelmed with all the knobs, switches, and dials, let alone the computer interfaces.

As for me, I think I will go for the headphones first, taking the risk that my Behringer UMC202HD will have the power to drive the cans properly.
After reading an in-depth review of 'Best headphones for classical music' on Sound Gear Lab, I may try the Sennheiser HD600.
Interesting note: Amazon prices the HD600's at $399.95, but Sweetwater prices them at $299.00. Nothing in description indicates this is for refurbished or open-box.
Neither Amazon or Sweetwater has them in stock, but Amazon promises delivery by 6/9. Sweetwater does not provide an ETA.
For the price, I think I am going to order them from Sweetwater. I have purchased from them before, and they are very friendly and helpful.

Whether or not my UMC202HD will drive the HD600's remains to be 'heard'. But in case it does not, I suppose I could route the audio from the Behringer to my Onkyo receiver - until I buy something better, like the Schiit Magnius.
I also own a pair of HED Cerwin Vega speakers, but use them only to listen to 'meditation music' while I sleep. I don't like to disturb everyone in the house while listening; my main reason for opting primarily for cans.

So far as the open design of the HD600's, that will not present a problem for me, as I do not plan to use them outside or in any 'quiet' places where sound leakage would be an issue.
Of course I will still have the ATH-M50X, if I still prefer them for rock. But everything I am reading both here and elsewhere leads me to believe that I will enjoy the HD600's for classical music.

I only posted that video due to hearing about real life use of higher bit-rate. It may have relevance or not to us on the other end? But interesting today I replaced one album from 16bit - 44.1 kHz to 44.1 kHz - 24bit and it was very different. The soundstage was bigger and the elements of the song were better outlined and imaged. Could be placebo?

 

[ultrarunner2018]

I did a bit of listening to 16-bit vs 24-bit at eclassical.com. But given only 30 second play time (before needing to hit play again), it was difficult to determine anything.
I would 'like' to say that I thought the 24-bit sounded better, but like you said - it could be placebo.
I think I should wait until I get the new headphones before I make any decisions on whether or not to upgrade some of (or add to) my classical library to 24-bit.

 

[ultrarunner2018]

One more thing:
With regards to soundstage, I have been reading that the 650 is better than the 600.
Would this be more desirable for listening to orchestral music (my preferred classical genre)?
That said, coming from the ATH-M50X, would I even be able to hear the difference between the 600 and 650?

Edit: Let me toss in the AKG K702 as well.
Edit 2: I've been reading some reviews on AKG, and they're saying made in China, and cheaply made.
Where are Sennheiser made?

 

[ultrarunner2018]

I just did some comparison between the Behringer UMC202HD and the Realtek on-board audio on my PC.
Surprisingly, the Realtek has much cleaner mid to high than the UMC.
I compared using the WASAPI driver, but also tried the ASIO driver for the UMC, but it didn't make any difference.
This kind of blew me away, since I had always assumed that the UMC was better than the on-board Realtek.
I think this was the case before I did my new PC build a year ago. The old board (an MSI) also used a Realtek chip, but not the same one. I guess a lot has happened to on-board audio over the 7 years between builds.

That said, if I go with the HD600 or 650, I doubt the Realtek will drive them.
The M50X have an impedance of 38 ohms, while the HD600/650 are 300 ohms.
So I will need a better (than the Behringer) DAC and amp in order to appreciate the more expensive cans.

 

[Tachyon88]

One more thing:
With regards to soundstage, I have been reading that the 650 is better than the 600.
Would this be more desirable for listening to orchestral music (my preferred classical genre)?
That said, coming from the ATH-M50X, would I even be able to hear the difference between the 600 and 650?

Edit: Let me toss in the AKG K702 as well.
Edit 2: I've been reading some reviews on AKG, and they're saying made in China, and cheaply made.
Where are Sennheiser made?

Soundstage will be the same, they are in identical housings with extremely similar FR. I wouldn't bother about the nuances so much especially since you can EQ.

I listen to your genre and HD650 will be great at it. For 1k you can probably get a used HD800 and HD6xx, then just keep your headphone you have now and you're covered on so many aspects of sonic characteristics. IF you want to know what soundstage is, go for the master of it, the HD800/s. Since you can EQ you can negate any of the physical limitations and/or tailor to your preference. The HD6 series is made in Romania I believe and it was Ireland not to long ago.