[dokebi]

Seems that these phones appeal mostly to the enthusiasts that have high standards when listening to their music. I showed a few of my friends who claim to be enthusiasts

a few pictures of Etymotics. First response was "ewww" what is that a medical earpiece from the 80's? You can let your imagination assume what other negative things they said without even listening or having a basic idea on why they cost so much. So to the average listener, would these phones become more popular if their design appeal looked more modern? ala most mainstream earphones. Or do the owners of these fine listening devices prefer to keep their quality and value to themselves?

 

[The Quality Guru]

Dokebi,

If it's not already pretty implied around here, looks usually aren't an issue (at least not for the most of us) because a headphone enthusiast's primary concern is (someone correct me if I'm wrong here) sound as the first priority, comfort probably as the second priority, and the way a headphone looks comes in as close to the last priority. Look at the AKG K1000, for instance. It's not the most visually appealing headphone, but it has excellent sound. Many times, trying to make a headphone look better will hinder its sound quality. In the case of the AKG K1000, changing the design would defeat the headphone's whole design purpose, which was to mount the drivers farther away from te ears for a more 'spacious' sound.

Ety's are already EXTREMELY popular around here, despite their supposed 'bad looks.' Look at Nicwix's three posts at the top, tallying the headphones people have for listening; there are many people with Ety's that evidently don't give a rat's ass about looks.

 

[kelly]

Etymotic is winning the popularity contest on HeadFi but it's not in the outside world. Further, for those of us who are fans of the Etymotic, we think it should be winning the popularity contest by a much wider margin.

In my opinion, nothing at $300 or below is remotely like the Etymotic. Nothing competes. Nothing even has the same design requirements (see other thread around here somewhere).

So, we have to reason with ourselves why not. What's going on. Everyone who has Etymotic loves them and yet some people won't even try them. Yeah, part of it is that whole "in the ear" thing that some people find too weird and part of it is the traditionalist approach to headphones--even I'm guilty of that, I've been listening to headphones for over 20 years, I'm rather fond of the ergonomics of standard circumaural headphones. But there has to be something else.

And yes, I think the general "looks" and aesthetics play a role. Matt suggested that a reference Etymotic should be built from a better material - maybe carbon fibre? I agree. Those little plastic drivers do "look cheap" no matter how much of delicate instruments they really are. The cord looks cheap too. Check out the W2002 cord for an example of what a good cord looks like--it's nice and it's wrapped in fabric to make it less microphonic. (Yes, normal headphones are microphonic too just not to the same extent as something crammed in your ear.)

Appearances definitely play a role in whether someone is willing to buy something. Some of us may consider ourselves too intellectual to put form over function, but even those of us who make such a claim never really ignore form altogether. The Etymotic could stand a little more design put into this aspect.

 

[dokebi]

well put kelly. Thank you.

 

[jpelg]

If you do not wish to read an idiot's ramblings, just go the last line of this post for the most relevant information. If you are brave or bored, then read on...

All good and valid responses. As far as why more of the general public doesn't respond to the Ety's overwhelmingly, I can only look at my own implulses. As someone who has hung around here for less than a year, I am admittedly new to this headphone thing, though not so new to hi-fi in general. But what I have found while wading in the low/mid-end (read "cheaper") of the headphone pool, is that 1.) there is alot of "snake oil" out there, 2.) there are very few solid values that really perform above & beyond, 3.) more expensive does not necessarily mean "sounds better", and most importantly 4.) sound perceptions are extremely personal and vary greatly depending on too many factors to compress in a paragraph or two. Also there are terms thrown around in many reviews and opinion statements that mean very little to those not already experiencing those things already. They even often seem contradictory within the same review. I am not saying that they are inaccurate or wrong. Just that they really don't mean anything to a non-user. I am only beginning to be able to dissect and decipher many posts here.

So given my prior experiences, the Ety line interests me very much and has interested me for a while now. But I really have to question the true value (dollars vs. performance) that I (bold, capitalized, read "ME" personally) would really extract from such a purchase. I would be a relatively easy sell. My desire for good sound at a reasonable price, and my ever strong proclivity for a well-engineered toy, force me to entertain thoughts of pluggng those admittedly strange looking devices into my head. I know that in the headphone world, beauty is as beauty does, so looks are not a problem for me. But still even I, a fan so to speak, hesitate still at the purchase.

Dropping from $130 up to over $300 on a set of cans for mostly portable use seem to rapidly approach a point of diminishing returns. While those that already own these fine instuments will undoubtedly say that they are worth their prices and more. But I will still argue the scale of benefits when used in a portable (read outside, public, ambient noise) situation in which most of the world uses headphones. What I am saying is that I now know that unless I am prepared to drop significant $$ on cans AND an amp, AND listen in the privacy of my own regulated quiet environment, will I even come close to getting the experience of standard speakers which provide clean, clear, accurate sound, and a true omnidirectional soundstage. Add to that the need to figure out the proper way to insert them into my ear canal each time I use them, lest the listening experience will be for nought, makes them more than a bit risky purchases. Yeah, yeah, Headroom has a 30-day return policy, I know. That's great but it is a still hassle, and I would never make the initial purchase unless I really planned to keep them, save for them totally sucking. I have payed too much money already to UPS for returns on phones purchased by mail. No one is getting rich except the delivery services. And now that I can no longer get packages delivered and picked up at my new workplace, it is even more of a hassle.

Now I have never heard a headphone that cost more than $250, and that was out of a receivers headphone jack. I was not impressed enough to spend the $250. You may say I needed better sources or amplification. I would agree, but I was/am not prepared to spend another $250-$0000's on that. Nor is that reasonable for me in a portable situation that comprises at least 50% of my listening time. Still, if Ety's were available locally, I think I would be more inclined to try them. At the moment I am resigned, at least for now, to continue to wade in the shallow end with my one or two value treasures that I have found (both locally).

So if even I (bold, capitalized, underlined) am now a "hard sell", it is no wonder the general public is near impossible. Maybe this is a good thing. I mean, Etymotic seemed to have a tough time over the holidays keeping up with their own orders along with Headroom's (and whoever else sells these). Good for them. But I would hope that quality does not suffer when production increases under pressure, and wonder if such devices could be mass produced on a Sony or even Grado-sized scale.

But I digress...

The answer to this thread's questions is "No".

 

[kelly]

I don't think price is the primary issue here. A lot of people paid more than $270 for their HD600s here.

As for Etymotic not being a good value, I'm pretty adamant in defying that remark. The Etymotics cannot, in my opinion, be easily compared to anything costing $300 or less.

Yes, I know, you implied that no headphone is worth $300. Fine. You're happy with your good enough whatever at a low enough price point that for you diminishing returns kicked in too hard to be worth upgrading. That's fine. Most of the public thinks paying more than $20 on headphones is ridiculous and most of us won't even consider the Orpheus seriously at $14k. We all set our financial limitations differently and that's fine.

However, to think, assume or imply that the Etymotic is a poor value relative to other headphones that have a comparable sound is completely unfounded regardless of what you think of our loosely thrown around terms. In fact, I'm a little insulted that you're so quick to point out our inexperience in audio when in this case, it's you who is unwilling to experience something.

Listen first. Criticize second. If after listening you think our opinions were unfounded and silly, great - I'll be glad to discuss.

 

[Alleria]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly The Etymotics cannot, in my opinion, be easily compared to anything costing $300 or less.

Agreed. Heck, in terms of sheer speed and resolution, I've heard few speakers that can keep up with the 4S/4P. The majority of flagship speakers can't even compare. Even my own standmounts, which use the screaming fast Scanspeak Revelator tweeters, are somewhat slower by comparison.

At the risk of beating the issue to a bloody pulp (it's dead already, I can see), I think Ety's lack of popularity in general are indeed ergonomic:

microphonic cord. occlusion noise of ears. short cord. difficulty with insertion w/o lots of practice. Ear canal itching after an hour or two. Possibly sanitary reasons. Possibly the noise rejection (could be a boon or bane...) Not exactly any new headlines here. And yes, some of these problems can be taken care of. But expecting everyone to buy a Fixup cord or two just doesn't happen, especially before the sale! And warning someone that they'll have to practice for two weeks of sticking things into their ear just doesn't sit well with people.

I don't think looks in general are all that bad, and they're certainly fairly inconspicuous -- good for not tempting people to swipe them, but the main thing is that people can't conceive of paying $270 or $330 for a pair of teensy earplugs.

 

[jpelg]

kelly,

I did not mean to invoke the flames of the Ety clan. Quite the contrary. I absolutely respect those who own and love these little devices, and think I made it absolutely clear that I have never heard them myself.

Also, I did not ASSUME or IMPLY anything. Nor am I CRITICIZING anything least of all the Ety's sound quality. I simply stated a reasonable opinion that it is a difficult proposition to achieve my expectations (which I clearly stated) of a +$300 purchase. I also stated (I think also reasonably) that true improvements in sound come in smaller increments as prices increase. Admittedly everyones "point of diminishing returns" is at a different point. I was just explaining that while I am an headphone enthusiast (I will not say fanatic), I am closer to the mindset of the general public than someone who is happy to spend the $$ for the Orpheus or even the HD600's, which I think is the main focus of this thread's question (see dokebi's first post), not preaching to the Ety choir.

The main point of my response post was to point out that if even I, as a consistent reader of this forum (and others), am of this OPINION (not stated as absolute fact), then it is not surprising the general public's disinterest in such an item as the Ety's. And we know that opinion and perception drives most purchases made by the masses, more so than absolute fact. I do think it is the $$ that is the primary issue for the general public. We obviously will have to agree to dissagree on this one. No offense intended.

 

[MacDEF]

The problem with talking about "value" is that "value" is not an objective thing. I may feel that Etys are a good value at $300, but that doesn't mean they actually are a good value for everyone.

Value is a subjective thing that is different for every single person. If good sound is so important that you would be willing to spend $12,000 for a headphone setup, $300 is an incredible value. If good sound is important only so long as you don't have to pay more than $50 for it, then $300 headphones are a horrible value.

In terms of why Etys are more popular outside of HeadFi and "audiophile" circles, I'd say the most important reason is the above -- for most people $300 is too much to spend on headphones, no matter how good they are. Combine that with two other factors (that many people don't like sticking things in their ears, and that many people don't think that a tiny little earbud can sound as good as a full-size headphone), and you get fewer Ety owners than people like us would think.

 

[kelly]

I re-read your other reply and was a little quick on the trigger -- something I'm more often the victim of than the perpetrator. Sorry about that. My apologies.

I agree that cost is, obviously, a barrier. But do you think cost is more of a barrier for the Etymotic than for similarly priced headphones? And is it, as the last person implied, that there is a different perception of value for ear canal phones than for full sized headphones? (Because they're small they seeminly should cost less regardless of quality?)

 

[jpelg]

For the most part, I don't think so. There are alot of the general public that think that "bigger" means "better" or "is worth more". But I think that someone who was looking to spend anywhere near that kind of moolah, would be at least slightly open to the possibility that there is engineering within a product that is worth money.

I think that for most people, once you told them the headphone they are looking at costs $300, would issue a polite "thank you", put them down, and walk away to look at the Bose surround-sound setup in the back. This is regardless of whether they were Ety's, Senns, or K1000's. There are, of course, exceptions to every general rule, but the general public (as undefined as THAT is) is who we are discussing here, right?

For me, I'd LOVE to try the Ety's myself. Maybe in a few months I will have the cash to consider the purchase or at least go through the rigors or trying them out via mail-order. But $300 buys alot of CDs and DVDs.

 

[MirandaX]

I think there are two types of people who go for Etys, and their criteria for value are probably very different. On one side, you have people who care primarily about sound. MacDEF is right -- a lot of these people wouldn't consider spending more than $50 on a set of cans. On the other side, you have people who buy Etys for noise reduction/isolation. I think a lot of these people look upon $270 as being a pretty fair price for what you get. (It might have to do with the awful Bose headphones costing $320 or so, so the far better Etys are a pretty decent "value".) I suspect that the majority of non-audiophile real-world Ety owners probably bought them for their isolation properties, rather than their stellar sound, since the value proposition for noise reduction seems more reasonable.

 

[x1lexure]

A few things that keep me from buying the ER-4s

Cord Microphonics, from what some of you say its pretty bad.
To short of a cord length, I, unlike some people, would use them at home.
The impedance factor, I want a phone that I can use (For now) without an amp.

(Now I know some of these can be fixed by tweaks, but I don't like messing with my headphones.)




We should really take a tally of what people want and have don take a look at it. (Theres no such thing as the perfect headphone, but a revised ety would almsot make it.)

 

[kelly]

The ER-4P has low impedance and can be driven easily from anything without an amp. My Pansonic 570 is usually at 2 on the volume for that, sometimes closer to 1.5.

If your other issues are cord length, consider picking up an extension cable.

The microphonics may not be so easily solved. If you move around a lot, this could be an issue.

 

[Duncan]

Hmm... interesting thread...

Although you get the whizzy box etc etc... at FACE value, the ETYs do look like a poor deal...

Sonically they may well blow your socks off, but - They just don't look worth the dough... as already mentioned - looks aren't the objective... but, would you be proud to go around in a small hatchback, just because its got a souped up engine that out-performs all other road-cars?