[limpidglitch]

Quote:

 
is this a fact, or something you might think happens?
 
I would like to see an article that reports of a high-end audio manufacture "deliberately" hobbling their components to make them sound different/worst.

 
Like the whole NOS DAC charade? Or like HifiMan and their HM-801?
Wadia have also been known to do this, so why not cable manufacturers?

 

[Lenni]

Quote:

 
Like the whole NOS DAC charade? Or like HifiMan and their HM-801?
Wadia have also been known to do this, so why not cable manufacturers?

 
a Chinese manufacture trying to maximise their profits by selling low quality products? no way.
 
I don’t doubt there’re cable snake oil salesmen out there (I can name a few) -- but to think that a high end audio manufacture (i.e. Audio Research, to name the first that come to mind), instead of investing their resources into research and improving their components, would deliberately hobble their products to make them sound different, it's ridiculous.

 

[bigshot]

I've heard of audiophile amps that have high end rolloffs to create a "house sound".
 
Think about it. If an expensive product sounds exactly the same as a cheap one, but both of them are functioning at full effectiveness (at least to the limits of human perception), how does the high end company differentiate its product? It hobbles it slightly to create "analogue warmth".
 
It isn't hard to create a wire that carries all of the signal from one end to the other. If there is an audible difference between cables, it isn't because one is better than the other. It's because one isn't working to spec. A cable should be a cable.

 

[Lenni]

Quote:

I've heard of audiophile amps that have high end rolloffs to create a "house sound".
 
Think about it. If an expensive product sounds exactly the same as a cheap one, but both of them are functioning at full effectiveness (at least to the limits of human perception), how does the high end company differentiate its product? It hobbles it slightly to create "analogue warmth".
 
It isn't hard to create a wire that carries all of the signal from one end to the other. If there is an audible difference between cables, it isn't because one is better than the other. It's because one isn't working to spec. A cable should be a cable.

 
yeah, fairy tales, like most of the comments in this forum.
 
the fact remains that you (like most of the others...) have never own, or even tried better quality cables. Isn’t that worth noticing that most (like 99%) cable skeptics have never own better cables?
 
also, you've never owned a DAC, ever. but you seem to be totally 100% sure that jitter is inaudible. you haven’t a clue what a system where jitter has been in part corrected or removed,  sounds like.
 
it's a shame

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

 
yeah, fairy tales, like most of the comments in this forum.
 
the fact remains that you (like most of the others...) have never own, or even tried better quality cables. Isn’t that worth noticing that most (like 99%) cable skeptics have never own better cables?
 
I've tried better cables, and I've measured them and done controlled listening tests with them, the differences to me were not audible , nor did anyone who attempted to compare samples created using these cables show any ability to tell them apart, this challenge was open to everyone. The differences between cables costing anywhere from 77c to $150 were extremely small and just not audible. Others here (PIO2001 included) have also done tests using different cables and found the differences to be insignificant.
 
 
 
also, you've never owned a DAC, ever. but you seem to be totally 100% sure that jitter is inaudible. you haven’t a clue what a system where jitter has been in part corrected or removed,  sounds like.
 
 
Luckily there have been a number of controlled tests that have provided evidence that even large amounts of jitter are just not audible, the evidence for low level jitter audibility is without exception anecdotal and dog and pony shows and not in any way borne out by anything remotely resembling controlled listening tests. 
 
 
 
 
it's a shame

 

[limpidglitch]

Quote:

 
a Chinese manufacture trying to maximise their profits by selling low quality products? no way.
 
I don’t doubt there’re cable snake oil salesmen out there (I can name a few) -- but to think that a high end audio manufacture (i.e. Audio Research, to name the first that come to mind), instead of investing their resources into research and improving their components, would deliberately hobble their products to make them sound different, it's ridiculous.

 
I don't know whether the likes of Meridian and McIntosh are considered as high end manufacturers any more, but you better believe it, and there is nothing ridiculous about it, it's basic business nous.
One has to differentiate oneself, create a 'sound', an 'image', a 'brand' to get a head in the market. Adding some pleasant harmonics, rolling off the high end etc. is just one way to do this.
 
 
Quote:

 
yeah, fairy tales, like most of the comments in this forum.
 
the fact remains that you (like most of the others...) have never own, or even tried better quality cables. Isn’t that worth noticing that most (like 99%) cable skeptics have never own better cables?
 
also, you've never owned a DAC, ever. but you seem to be totally 100% sure that jitter is inaudible. you haven’t a clue what a system where jitter has been in part corrected or removed,  sounds like.
 
it's a shame

 
I've never owned a high end cable (unless a Qables silvercab LOD count?), but early on in my endeavour I had the opportunity to borrow a few highly thought of Van den Huul cables so I could figure out what all this fuss was about. I had three cables: one basic one from a local high street store, one low end VdH and one moderately high end VdH. Sitting on the floor plugging in, plugging out, and generally mucking about, I could clearly hear some differences. One was harsh, the next was mellow, while the last one was sweet. No guessing which was which.
All seemed fine and dandy, and I figured the ~$100 for the low end VdH seemed reasonable, until one day I came home from school and sat down to listen to some tunes. It was blissful! Everything seemed right; sweet, clear, punchy, everything! I figured "woah, this high end VdH sure delivers some quality, maybe I really should splurge?" Imagine the surprise then when I looked behind the the CD-player to remove the cables so I could return them, only to discover that the cables that was in use was the cheap generic ones! Next thing I did was to try out the other cables to see if they could possibly sound even better than this. They didn't, if anything they sounded worse.
And thus the scales fell from my eyes, I had discovered that the mighty wizard was little more than a sad little man acting all high and mighty. Never again have I tried do do any sort of critical evaluations sighted.

 

[bigshot]

the fact remains that you (like most of the others...) have never own, or even tried better quality cables. Isn’t that worth noticing that most (like 99%) cable skeptics have never own better cables?

Why should I spend my hard earned money on an audio product that doesn't measure any better or sound different in controlled listening tests? Why should I trust a cable salesman instead of all the professional sound engineers I've spoken to? Why should I buy audio equipment that is nothing more than a status symbol designed to showcase my conspicuous consumption?

I don't go out into the world and randomly try everything there is to try. I educate myself and make informed choices. I carefully evaluate what I buy and figure out its strengths and weaknesses and work on improving things intelligently. I've spent several decades doing that, and I've learned an awful lot. I've applied that knowledge to build a sound system that kicks ass. I want people to be impressed with the sound of my stereo, not how much it cost.

If you want fairy tales, go into a high end audio shop and start talking to a salesman.

 

[bigshot]

Remember the ad in the back of comic books for "X Ray Specs"? The cartoon showed a horny guy wearing glasses looking at a pretty girl and seeing her naked under her dress. Now, I never pulled a dollar out of my pocket and mailed away to get those, so I guess I have no right to say that X Ray Specs don't actually let you see girls naked under their clothes. Only the people who ordered them get to do that. Gosh! I am sure missing out!

 

[Lenni]

Quote:

I've tried better cables, and I've measured them and done controlled listening tests with them, the differences to me were not audible , nor did anyone who attempted to compare samples created using these cables show any ability to tell them apart, this challenge was open to everyone. The differences between cables costing anywhere from 77c to $150 were extremely small and just not audible. Others here (PIO2001 included) have also done tests using different cables and found the differences to be insignificant.

 
I would not consider cables in that price range better cables. I didn’t here a huge difference until I went in the $500+ region. But let’s assume they indeed were better, what make you so special than the other 99% who have tried better cables and heard a difference?
 
 
Luckily there have been a number of controlled tests that have provided evidence that even large amounts of jitter are just not audible, the evidence for low level jitter audibility is without exception anecdotal and dog and pony shows and not in any way borne out by anything remotely resembling controlled listening tests. 
 
I don't dispute it's anecdotal. what you don’t seem to realize here is that we’re talking about subtle differences. they’re subtle but make a huge difference, to me. that’s why I think I’m an audiophile. we spend thousands of $ for subtle differences/improvements, where is quite possible to someone else these differences would be insignificant or even inaudible, but to us they make a huge difference. 
 
Fact is, I’ve never enjoy the sound of my system like I do atm, it's great, and no science theories, beliefs, whatever, is gonna change that.

 

[xnor]

Quote:

 
I would not consider cables in that price range better cables. I didn’t here a huge difference until I went in the $500+ region. But let’s assume they indeed were better, what make you so special than the other 99% who have tried better cables and heard a difference?

If you can afford more expensive cables why don't you do similar measurements, or at least a DBT?
 
It looks like you're just trying to find a reason to dismiss nick_charles' hard work now, but:
 
$150/77c = ~190x
$500/$150 = ~3x
Besides that, price usually rises exponentially with increasing performance, up to some point anyway when performance starts to drop again.
 
And with the 99% you mean what group exactly? The 99% of the 30% of the 1% = 0.3%? Yeah, pretty meaningless isn't it.
Under what circumstances have these people heard differences? What was the test setup?
 
Quote:

I don't dispute it's anecdotal. what you don’t seem to realize here is that we’re talking about subtle differences. they’re subtle but make a huge difference, to me. that’s why I think I’m an audiophile. we spend thousands of $ for subtle differences/improvements, where is quite possible to someone else these differences would be insignificant or even inaudible, but to us they make a huge difference. 

Why do those purported "huge differences" usually completely disappear when the same people do proper tests?
 
 
Quote:

Fact is, I’ve never enjoy the sound of my system like I do atm, it's great, and no science theories, beliefs, whatever, is gonna change that.

Not even reality?
 
But anyway, we're just after difference that can be actually heard. A fancy looking cable may make you "feel good" but probably doesn't do anything to physically improve the sound quality.
 
 
Quote:

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool." -- Richard Feynman

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

 
I don't dispute it's anecdotal. 

 
no need to add anything else 

 

[bigshot]

I would not consider cables in that price range better cables. I didn’t here a huge difference until I went in the $500+ region. But let’s assume they indeed were better, what make you so special than the other 99% who have tried better cables and heard a difference?

Oh! That one is easy... He did a double blind test to determine the truth. He didn't just depend on subjective impressions.
 

Fact is, I’ve never enjoy the sound of my system like I do atm, it's great, and no science theories, beliefs, whatever, is gonna change that.

Science can make it even better!

 

[wafflezz]

Quote:

I've heard of audiophile amps that have high end rolloffs to create a "house sound".
 
Think about it. If an expensive product sounds exactly the same as a cheap one, but both of them are functioning at full effectiveness (at least to the limits of human perception), how does the high end company differentiate its product? It hobbles it slightly to create "analogue warmth".
 
It isn't hard to create a wire that carries all of the signal from one end to the other. If there is an audible difference between cables, it isn't because one is better than the other. It's because one isn't working to spec. A cable should be a cable.

Oh wow...that's just. All of my wat.
Changing the sound signature of an amp to intentionally cause distortion in frequency response? That actually means they perform *worse* than their cheap knockoff counterparts.

That's pretty funny

 

[Chromako]

For fear of Derailing this thread.... If you think about it, why do people buy valve amps when we have solid state? No reasonable person, including any valve fans I've talked to, say that their valve amps produce less distortion (THD+N) than a reasonable solid state unit. Valves, after all, have much lower slew rates, bandwidth, and SNRs than, say, a 5 USD LM4171 op ap (to be fair,that's a really ice one).

Just illustrating that people add distortion voluntarily, for a more "pleasing" sound, to the particular customer. Hence how some more expensive amps are designed with in mind. It makes it more enjoyable for them. Hell, my Bryston is half the price of some of Woo's offerings while having more accuracy and bandwidth. But I'm sure that the Woo could be more enjoyable were I to compare that WA22 to the Bryston. With music listening, enjoyment is the most important thing.

What's the chief complaint about the HD800? It's too accurate. The LCD3s are less accurate, objectively, but they can be much more enjoyable to many, and are quite popular.

Don't get me started with people using hand-wound beeswax and gold film capacitors (not kidding).That cannot be a way to make the most accurate device, but they enjoy it anyway.

Of course, I think that it might be better, objectively, to use a very well designed DSP algorithm than messing around with this stuff, as then you would have better and finer control, but that's not the point, and I'm not even sure if there is a user friendly piece of playback software with that DSP (those algorithms are available in mastering suites, so it is possible).

TL;DR: Music is about the enjoyment, which is more than just fidelity. That's what I see lots of engineering types forgetting (much to the chagrin of us poor psychology and artsy peoples!)

 

[Lenni]

Quote:

...
And with the 99% you mean what group exactly? The 99% of the 30% of the 1% = 0.3%? Yeah, pretty meaningless isn't it.
Under what circumstances have these people heard differences? What was the test setup?
 
that's not what I meant to say. I got the numbers wrong. my bad. never mind.
 
...
 
Not even reality?
 
But anyway, we're just after difference that can be actually heard. A fancy looking cable may make you "feel good" but probably doesn't do anything to physically improve the sound quality.
 
there's nothing fancy looking about my cables. they're just thin strings of wire that I can hardly see. though, the difference they make sounds quite real to me.