[bigshot]

It seems there is some difference between cables.

Are you referring to the color of the insulation around the wires?

 

[xnor]

too direct, bigshot, too direct!

 

[jonbmet]

Quote:

 
dynamic single driver headphones are much simpler loads than multiway loudspeakers - headphone impedance curves are generally smoother - the bass bump, voice coil impedance rise are at frequencies we are relatively insensitive to

 
Makes sense.

 

[jonbmet]

Quote:

Are you referring to the color of the insulation around the wires?

Obviously I am not referring to the insulation color. Are you actually part of a discussion or just 'pointing fingers' at people who do not blindly accept everything you say regarding audio technology?

 

[ab initio]

Quote:

Obviously I am not referring to the insulation color. Are you actually part of a discussion or just 'pointing fingers' at people who do not blindly accept everything you say regarding audio technology?

I think he's pointing out that the biggest measurable difference between cables is aesthetics.
 
If you can define a case-study system for a discussion about the possible affect the cables could have, then we can move forward with defining the upper bounds on the audibility of cables in such a system.
 
Cheers

 

[bigshot]

With audio interconnects, the color and connectors are the main differences. In a 3 meter length, there is no way any properly constructed interconnect can sound any different. That goes for everything from Radio Shack cheapies on up.

I'm happy to provide links and citations to back up what I say if you would like. I don't need you to accept anything I say blindly. In fact, I would prefer that you didn't.

 

[ab initio]

Quote:

 
Makes sense.

Based on the paper you linked to [paper]

• Transmission line effects are completely negligible (duh)
• The proposed model for the voltage at the speaker terminals is given by

Quote:

Vs = Va * [ (Rs^2 + Xs^2) / ( (Rw + Rs)^2 + (Xw +/- Xs)^2 )]^(1/2)

Where the subscript s denotes "speaker", subscript a denotes "amplifier", and subscript w denotes "cable" and V, R, and X are the voltage, resistance, and reactance, respectively.
 
What you will find is that the R and X of various headphones are orders of magnitude larger than the R's and X's of any reasonable cable, such that Vs = Va for all intents and purposes.
 
For 8 Ohm speakers, the effects of the cable is vanishingly small. When you consider that recabling 300 and 600 Ohm headphones with ~ 0.05 Ohm cables people cannot affect the sound in any way that's close to the limits of perception, you begin to understand how silly it is to fuss over "the sound" of cables.
 
Get the cables that have the mechanical properties, aesthetic qualities, and build quality that suits you. If  you're amp is susceptible to EMI from the output side, get the shielding you need, or get a better designed amplifier.
 
Cheers

 

[jonbmet]

Quote:

I think he's pointing out that the biggest measurable difference between cables is aesthetics.
 
If you can define a case-study system for a discussion about the possible affect the cables could have, then we can move forward with defining the upper bounds on the audibility of cables in such a system.
 
Cheers

Yes, I know what he was saying.....I just don't know what it has to do with the discussion. The same goes for the pricing of cables. I honestly don't have an opinion on the subject of cables...that's why I'm here. I wish the mocking statements would stop. I'm pretty sure that won't happen though.
 
I did post an article earlier that one person (jcx) posted a response to. I thought what he said made sense...and said so.
 
I realize my ears do not qualify as a case-study, however, I swear that the instrument separation and details between two cables I own are different. I don't have a way of doing a proper blind test or abx text, but I'm pretty sure I could identify the cables in such a test. Like I said earlier I have two cans I can use these cables with. The Mr. Speakers Maddogs and Vmoda M80's. I don't hear much of a difference between cables when using the Maddogs, but with the M80's I do.
 
For the record I'm comparing a stock Vmoda cable (included with the Maddogs and M80's) and the Moon Audio Blue Dragon cable. I assume the gauge of the wires in the Moon Audio cable are larger than the Vmoda, but I have no way of knowing.

 

[jonbmet]

So is this an accurate model of a speaker system?
 
Vs = Va * [ (Rs^2 + Xs^2) / ( (Rw + Rs)^2 + (Xw +/- Xs)^2 )]^(1/2)
 

 

[bigshot]

The whole reason to do controlled testing is because you CAN'T be "pretty sure" about anything that subtle without doing one.

That said, there is more likelihood that an expensive audiophile cable would sound different than an inexpensive one. Sometimes audiophile equipment is deliberately hobbled so it sounds different. But "different" in these situations doesn't mean "better".

A simple switch box is the best investment you can ever make. It will save you hundreds and hundreds of dollars in unnecessary expenses on equipment that makes absolutely no difference. It's ironic that you perceive someone who is trying to help you as someone who is mocking you. I'm not mocking you. I am pointing you in a direction where you can know "for sure", not just "pretty sure".

High end cables are a total ripoff. You are a fine person. My scorn is reserved for the scam artists that propogate misunderstandings like this. They are mocking audiophiles all the way to the bank.

Some interesting reading from one of the top engineers at MacIntosh...
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

 

[ab initio]

Quote:

Yes, I know what he was saying.....I just don't know what it has to do with the discussion. The same goes for the pricing of cables. I honestly don't have an opinion on the subject of cables...that's why I'm here. I wish the mocking statements would stop. I'm pretty sure that won't happen though.
 
I did post an article earlier that one person (jcx) posted a response to. I thought what he said made sense...and said so.
 
I realize my ears do not qualify as a case-study, however, I swear that the instrument separation and details between two cables I own are different. I don't have a way of doing a proper blind test or abx text, but I'm pretty sure I could identify the cables in such a test. Like I said earlier I have two cans I can use these cables with. The Mr. Speakers Maddogs and Vmoda M80's. I don't hear much of a difference between cables when using the Maddogs, but with the M80's I do.
 
For the record I'm comparing a stock Vmoda cable (included with the Maddogs and M80's) and the Moon Audio Blue Dragon cable. I assume the gauge of the wires in the Moon Audio cable are larger than the Vmoda, but I have no way of knowing.

I think you just missed my previous post

 
You can always ask Moon Audio what gauge wire is in your cable, same as Vmoda. You can try some typical numbers in the equations given in that paper you linked, and you'll find all the results suggest fractions of a dB only at the the extreme limits of audible frequencies ... I speculate that would be very very difficult to identify in a blind ABX test (impossible?) unless you have a very special set of ears.
 
It is trivial to plug some numbers into the formulas in the paper you linked. Give us some background info of your setup, and I can (and I'm sure the other folks here as well) can easily help you quantify the impact of the cable choice.
 
Cheers

 

[ab initio]

Quote:

So is this an accurate model of a speaker system?
 
Vs = Va * [ (Rs^2 + Xs^2) / ( (Rw + Rs)^2 + (Xw +/- Xs)^2 )]^(1/2)
 

That's the expression for the cable response at the speaker terminals, modeling the speaker and cables a lumped component system. It's given in the engineering report that you linked. You tell me if that is a reliable source of information. The author doesn't appear to be an academic, but seems to have audio industry experience. I don't know if the Engineering Reports in JAES are peer reviewed, or what standards they are held to compared to the original research papers.
My intuition is that the model is good as long as you apply it correctly in the way it was intended.

 

[jonbmet]

Quote:

The whole reason to do controlled testing is because you CAN'T be "pretty sure" about anything that subtle without doing one.

That said, there is more likelihood that an expensive audiophile cable would sound different than an inexpensive one. Sometimes audiophile equipment is deliberately hobbled so it sounds different. But "different" in these situations doesn't mean "better".

A simple switch box is the best investment you can ever make. It will save you hundreds and hundreds of dollars in unnecessary expenses on equipment that makes absolutely no difference. It's ironic that you perceive someone who is trying to help you as someone who is mocking you. I'm not mocking you. I am pointing you in a direction where you can know "for sure", not just "pretty sure".

High end cables are a total ripoff. You are a fine person. My scorn is reserved for the scam artists that propogate misunderstandings like this. They are mocking audiophiles all the way to the bank.

Some interesting reading from one of the top engineers at MacIntosh...
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

 
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I've been careful to try not to use the term "better" when describing what I hear....just "different". If I did use "better" at some point I didn't mean to. I'll check out the article you linked.
 
 
Quote:

I think you just missed my previous post

 
You can always ask Moon Audio what gauge wire is in your cable, same as Vmoda. You can try some typical numbers in the equations given in that paper you linked, and you'll find all the results suggest fractions of a dB only at the the extreme limits of audible frequencies ... I speculate that would be very very difficult to identify in a blind ABX test (impossible?) unless you have a very special set of ears.
 
It is trivial to plug some numbers into the formulas in the paper you linked. Give us some background info of your setup, and I can (and I'm sure the other folks here as well) can easily help you quantify the impact of the cable choice.
 
Cheers

I did see it. I can look up the impedances of headphones, but I don't have a way of accurately measuring reactance of anything...or the impedance of cables. Any advice for doing this? I have the formula plugged into a spreadsheet so I can play with some different numbers. Would be happy to provide a list of the equipment I use. For all I know this information is already available.

 

[ab initio]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I've been careful to try not to use the term "better" when describing what I hear....just "different". If I did use "better" at some point I didn't mean to. I'll check out the article you linked.




I did see it. I can look up the impedances of headphones, but I don't have a way of accurately measuring reactance of anything...or the impedance of cables. Any advice for doing this? I have the formula plugged into a spreadsheet so I can play with some different numbers. Would be happy to provide a list of the equipment I use. For all I know this information is already available.

The article bigshot linked is a good read and i love the oldschool photos of the analog scope!

The complex impedance will depend on the materials and geometry of the wire construction and you can find the resistance, capacitence and inductance values for the cable (all per unit length) from the manufacturers specs---usually stated on the product description of bulk quatities sold through major distributors.

All you need to do is figure out what sort of stock cable your cables were made from and we can look up the specs. If my memory is correct, bluejean cables even specify which bulk wires they make their cables from and the resistance, capacitance and inductance.

If you can find the specs on a similar design, you csn plug those numbers in to get a pretty good idea (+/- 20%) of your cables. If you find that cables affect things by only ~0.1 or 0.2 dB, even with 20% uncertainty, you can still be certain that thr effect is negligible

Sorry, writing on phone atm, so i can't elaborate/ cite better

Cheers

 

[Lenni]

Quote:

...

That said, there is more likelihood that an expensive audiophile cable would sound different than an inexpensive one. Sometimes audiophile equipment is deliberately hobbled so it sounds different. But "different" in these situations doesn't mean "better".

...

 
is this a fact, or something you might think happens?
 
I would like to see an article that reports of a high-end audio manufacture "deliberately" hobbling their components to make them sound different/worst.