Will the insanity NEVER end?!

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by Sinbios This is funny, you're calling the "objectivists" insensitive ignorami? So you're saying that objectivists should respect the fabled fairy dust logic theories of the author of that article? Just because his ideas seem to make sense?

No, I'm not calling the objectivists insensitive ignorami -- just most of the posters there. And all people who just can or want to see fairy dust instead of logic in well thought-out theories and explanations.

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The Earth is flat; it seems to make sense, after all. Why is the sky blue? Because green is taken by the grass and brown is taken by the dirt. Why do stars glitter? Because they're winking at the Earthlings. What is the sun? A giant lightbulb in space. The moon? A chunk of cheese.

Exactly this kind of approach.

 

[meat01]

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The Earth is flat; it seems to make sense, after all. Why is the sky blue? Because green is taken by the grass and brown is taken by the dirt. Why do stars glitter? Because they're winking at the Earthlings. What is the sun? A giant lightbulb in space. The moon? A chunk of cheese.

This describes a lot of the people on this forum that will not test or allow anyone to test whether they hear a difference. This does not describe the people that will not pay hundreds of dollars to see if it works.

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And all people who just can or want to see fairy dust instead of logic in well thought-out theories and explanations.

This forum does not allow logic and scientific tests. We are to believe that fairy dust works, because you say so and if we can not hear a difference, we are deaf or our system is not as good as yours. Hydrogen Audio actually tests to see if there is a difference and backs up their data with objective results. If that isn't logical, I don't kwow what is. Here, people write 5 page reviews of what they think they hear and dismiss products that don't cost as much as theirs. "My CD player smokes your CD player", OK then prove it.

 

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by meat01 This forum does not allow logic and scientific tests.

That's simply not true -- and you know it. The only thing that's not allowed is DBT.

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We are to believe that fairy dust works, because you say so and if we can not hear a difference, we are deaf or our system is not as good as yours.

That's still a viable explanation -- and as a person with emphasis on logic you should seriously take it into consideration. (Not the fairy-dust part -- your personal scenario for putting the audiophile approach down.)

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Here, people write 5 page reviews of what they think they hear and dismiss products that don't cost as much as theirs. "My CD player smokes your CD player", OK then prove it.

You must have a quite pronounced bias while browsing Head-Fi. I can't remember having encountered one «My CD player smokes your CD player» statement. And there are a lot of examples where the cheaper device is preferred to a more expensive one. So I have troubles seeing you as a real «objectivist». Maybe you're a «subjective objectivist».

 

[meat01]

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That's simply not true -- and you know it. The only thing that's not allowed is DBT.

OK, does this mean that Single Blind Tests are allowed? Is there another way to prove that there is no difference between two components without knowing which one is being played?

Regarding the "My CD player smokes your CD player" was not meant to be literal. I am talking about anyone that claims that one item blows another item out of the water or there is a night and day difference, when it can't be proven. A lot of descriptions that mean nothing and can not be proven.

 

[PhilS]

This forum used to be fun and a nice place to visit to learn new stuff. People could talk about audio equipment, and their tweaks, including cables, etc., and what worked for them and what didn't. There was kind of a shared joy about the hobby and everyone sharing their experiences on what they were doing to their systems. Sure there were folks who like to thread krap and spread their DBT, etc. agenda whenever they got the chance, but for the most part, it was still about what he heard, what he enjoyed, and talking about how to improve one's system.

Now, this forum is more and more populated by people who just like to ridicule others, try to show how smart they are, make sarcastic comments about people who hear improvements through power cords, etc. Frankly, the way this is going, this forum might eventually be populated almost exclusively by the "vitriolic yapping of insensitive ignorami," and all the folks who like to discuss the hobby and audio tweaks for the fun of it will just leave. I know I'm not alone in this, and I also know that the segment of folks who I am talking about don't give a hoot what I say. But there are nice folks that are no longer here, and I suspect (and in some cases have reason to know) that this is why.

Jazz, keep up the good fight. Maybe you can save this place for those of us who are too tired of this krap to fight about it anymore.

 

[bigshot]

Look at the title of this thread. Read the original post. If you don't like this topic, don't read it or post to it. It's very simple...

See ya
Steve

 

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by meat01 OK, does this mean that Single Blind Tests are allowed?

Not sure about that. I think in the sense of the restriction also SBTs are forbidden.


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Is there another way to prove that there is no difference between two components without knowing which one is being played?

Why would you want to prove that there's no difference? This forum and our hobby would make no sense if all components sounded the same.


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Regarding the "My CD player smokes your CD player" was not meant to be literal. I am talking about anyone that claims that one item blows another item out of the water or there is a night and day difference, when it can't be proven. A lot of descriptions that mean nothing and can not be proven.

Again: why looking for proofs? Oftentimes it's not about better or worse, but preference and synergy. Let your ears and yourself decide what you like best! Do you need a blind test to know that you like Bach better then Beethoven? Also you can't blind-test headphones, nevertheless simple auditions and comparisons are good enough even for most objectivists. The reason is clear: They know in advance that headphones can make a difference (i.e. the laws of physics allow them to hear them)...


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Originally Posted by PhilS Jazz, keep up the good fight. Maybe you can save this place for those of us who are too tired of this krap to fight about it anymore.

Actually I rather belong to the «too tired» people -- and have just temporarily found some dose of additional energy. But I've also discovered that the world keeps spinning even without my reaction to every objectivist statement...

 

[PhilS]

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Originally Posted by bigshot Look at the title of this thread. Read the original post. If you don't like this topic, don't read it or post to it. It's very simple... See ya Steve

To use an analogy I've used before, if my obnoxious uncle comes to visit, I can always ingore him and go to another room, but I'd rather he just not visit or be in the house period. It's just not a nice place to be. It's even worse if he brings his obnoxious friends. So saying just ignore him really only resolves part of the problem. Eventually, one figures out that the easiest thing to do is to avoid his company.

See ya
Phil

 

[markl]

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This forum does not allow logic and scientific tests. We are to believe that fairy dust works, because you say so and if we can not hear a difference, we are deaf or our system is not as good as yours. Hydrogen Audio actually tests to see if there is a difference and backs up their data with objective results. If that isn't logical, I don't kwow what is. Here, people write 5 page reviews of what they think they hear and dismiss products that don't cost as much as theirs. "My CD player smokes your CD player", OK then prove it.

I love how some of the self-described "objectivists" often like to whine about how they aren't allowed to whine about subjective impressions on this forum. Many of them seem to have severe persecution complexes. Have you read your own posts in this thread? from another perspective, all I see nowadays in the cables forum is constant sniping from the objectivist crowd, and certainly I don't see anything being done about it, despite my attempts to bring all that to the Mods attention last month. Has a mod come in and removed any of your comments? I didn't think so. It seems one is free to continue to make DBT-style arguments, ridicule subjective impressions, and be generally rude to one's heart's desire without incurring any warnings, cautions, or slaps on the wrist, so long as the actual keys typed in succession do not spell D-B-T.

You see objectivists being persecuted, other people see them running rough-shod and being rude and condescending at every turn. Maybe if that's the case, the Mods feel Head-Fi must be working correctly.

 

[bigshot]

Well, now number three has checked in... time for everyone but me to get very angry.

See ya
Steve

 

[meat01]

I have not thread crapped, I have not been rude, I have not made fun of anyone in this thread or any of the other threads that have popped up lately, and I am not whining. I just find it funny that hydrogen audio is being called non logical and compared to people who think the world is flat.

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Why would you want to prove that there's no difference?

Why would I spend $500 on a cable if it sounded the same as a $5 one? That is my logic.

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Jazz, keep up the good fight

I am not trying to fight.

 

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by bigshot Well, now number three has checked in... time for everyone but me to get very angry.

And what is this comment for?

 

[Sinbios]

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Originally Posted by JaZZ No, I'm not calling the objectivists insensitive ignorami -- just most of the posters there. And all people who just can or want to see fairy dust instead of logic in well thought-out theories and explanations.

And that iar article does not talk about theories and explanations. It talks about hypotheses and guesses of the author, with nothing to back it up - in fact, against facts. He tries to tell us that CDs are analogue. Which they, in fact, are not, any more than your harddrive is analogue. You have been fooled by his apparently intelligent explanations, which just shows how little weak your grasp on facts is.

In fact, read this article, and tell me what you think:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/kamis.htm

 

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by Sinbios And that iar article does not talk about theories and explanations. It talks about hypotheses and guesses of the author, with nothing to back it up - in fact, against facts.

Really? Please explain!


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He tries to tell us that CDs are analogue.

You must have read this article with a heavy bias not to understand the meaning of the term «analog» in the context of digital signals. The author has thoroughly explained how it's to be understood. And he never called CDs analog (and at the same time vinyl digital...

), at best he called the digital media «half analog». And he's absolutely right! Read the corresponding page again -- this time with an open mind!


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You have been fooled by his apparently intelligent explanations, which just shows how little weak your grasp on facts is.

I don't think so. I just share his view on most subjects. And I would be interested to discuss with you in detail where he's obviously wrong and where his theories lack logic.


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In fact, read this article, and tell me what you think: http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/kamis.htm

What I think about it? It's a further attempt to discredit the audiophile approach and theories to explain unexplained audio phenomena. Of course I agree with you that a perpetuum mobile on the presented basis will never work. But what does this link have to do with the article in question? Where is the link -- apart from the fact that you rate both as obscure and illogical?

 

[Sinbios]

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Originally Posted by JaZZ Really? Please explain!

I have! Please read my comments above.
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You must have read this article with a heavy bias not to understand the meaning of the term «analog» in the context of digital signals. The author has thoroughly explained how it's to be understood. And he never called CDs analog (and at the same time vinyl digital... ), at best he called the digital media «half analog». And he's absolutely right! Read the corresponding page again -- this time with an open mind!

He said that the information concerning amplitude coming from the CD is not sufficient! To be precise, he said "For one of these two waveform dimensions, the vertical amplitude axis, the CD contains some information, but the data coming from the CD are emphatically not fully or adequately descriptive of the music waveform's ever changing amplitude, especially for musical frequencies above 2 kHz or so." As if the CD or CD writer could decide that, "Ah! A music file is being put on me! Better choose to ignore some of the bits that pertain to the amplitude axis! Aha, here's some audio signal above 2kHz! Better discard some more of this!" The only place this might happen is when converting from digital to analogue or vice versa, and neither of these processes happen at the CD or CD drive. The CD is an EXACT replica of the bits that has been passed to it, and will give it back exactly the same way; the author of that article describes a process where you give a chunk of music to the CD, the CD decides what to keep and what not to keep, and gives you back part of the music. This happens in tapes, not CDs.
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I don't think so. I just share his view on most subjects. And I would be interested to discuss with you in detail where he's obviously wrong and where his theories lack logic.

Well, could you pull out some evidence where the CD drive actually "recreates" the audio stream, instead of just passing the bits to the DAC?

EDIT: I followed up on the possibility that the author is talking about SACD from Hydrogen Audio, and it seems the author would be correct in the previous point, if he was talking about SACDs, which uses Direct Stream Digital to store an audio signal instead of plain bits. Which is not the case with normal audio CDs, which is in essence a data disc.

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What I think about it? It's a further attempt to discredit the audiophile approach and theories to explain unexplained audio phenomena. Of course I agree with you that a perpetuum mobile on the presented basis will never work. But what does this link have to do with the article in question? Where is the link -- apart from the fact that you rate both as obscure and illogical?

That article has nothing to do with audio, really. Read it without thinking about any audio-related stuff, and tell me if the article is not obscure and illogical.