[raymondlin]

While talking to Duncan this morning about CD players, we came upon a point which I like to discuss. Now he just bought a Phillips CD player that was made in 1991, the player is still mint, and to him sounds musical and very good indeed. But no doubt if the question was ask the people here, most of which would say that the Current mid range or even sub $200 CD players would give the older generations a run for its money and some would go as far as saying the older CD players are simply cack.

Now the question is why?

I understand the point of view where the technology move on, and that the back then top of the range model’s technological aspect get filter and pass down to it’s lower model over time and generations. However, there are aspects that it doesn’t get passes down, like the CD player’s own characteristics. The combination of all those components together, those are unique. But back to the point about technology moving on, and that we (most of us) believe that new must be better, the new model must be better than last year’s model. Now, I am sure this is usually true but how come some people dismiss old CD players off hand without listening to it first? Just knowing that it’s made in the 80’s and 90’s is enough to make up their mind for them – “It’s not as good as the newer models”.

We here at Head-Fi love 1 thing above all others, headphones. But we don’t automatically dismiss older models like Grado HP series, SR Series, Sony R-10…etc. We love them in fact, but why? It’s probably because we actually listen to any new headphones that is out before we make up our mind to see if it’s better than the current models we have. Yet we are so dismissive about older generation CD players, if we were to take another example and apply the same logic, the NOS Tubes market won’t even exists. Vacuum Tubes were made redundant back in the 60’s and 70’s both in computers and Hi-fi. We moved on since then, yet now we search factories, warehouses, cellars, attics worldwide to find those last of the few that remains and sell them at extortionate prices. Except that we still think they sound good, Musical Fidelity uses NOS Army tubes for their top of the line CD players and Amplifiers, so good that I want one, and so does a lot of people.

I’ve ranted a bit there but let me get back on my point, why do we dismiss old CD players just because they are old? Why don’t we give them a chance? Next time we see a old formally top of the line CD player, why don’t we pay that $20 and take it home and give it a spin?

It might just surprise you.

 

[averydonovan]

I have a Sony D-14, a close cousin to the D-5/D-50 model, and it sounds pretty good. My computer sound card beats it but that little player sounds better than it should for a player with literally first-generation multi-bit DAC technology without oversampling.

 

[Duncan]

Finding write ups about my player is virtually impossible, although I may do one for another website... people there are more interested in vintage / classic gear than anyone here.

Anyway... the nearest I can find is a very brief link about my players younger brother, the 850mkII... essentially a stripped down 850, still got good write ups though...

link here

 

[ampgalore]

People, please, we already have an overpriced vintage portable CDP market, please don't make this into an over priced vintage home CDP market.

Although if this works out, I wouldn't mind selling my home CD deck for a premium.

 

[PinkFloyd]

I don't think anyone is trying to say that older CD players sound better than their modern counterparts........ some of them do but quite a lot of them sound pretty awful as do some of the el cheapo modern CDP's.

The Philips CD 850 that Duncan mentions is an absolute cracker of a machine packed full of quality components, swinging arm lazer, high quality transport and the best part..... it sounds superb.

It may be bitstream but it comes pretty close to the good old multibit players..... the CD850 was philips' turning point from multibit to bitstream so it had to be good if it were to compare to multibit. You've also got to remember that CD was still competing with vinyl and the likes of philips were throwing all they had into the new technology in an attempt to get it to equal vinyl in sound quality and make it the accepted medium. "Some" of these early players beat the pants off of many of todays machines due to their no holds barred designs.

Todays high end players feature the same kind of component real estate that the Philips CD 850 is packed with....... but how much do they cost? £2,000 upwards.

I, personally, believe that as soon as the technology became the "accepted" medium things rapidly started going downhill...... they'd got people to buy into the idea by producing these flagship players so it was now a case of paring the parts list down to the bone to maximise profit and recoup their development costs. A quick glance under the bonnet of any of todays budget to midrange CD players will confirm this to be the case, the PCB's are the size of a postage stamp and there's enough free space inside the enclosure that you could hold a barn dance in them.

You've also got to remember the politics of the era and, in particular, Reaganomics and Thatcherism. These pair of crooks introduced a new way of thinking "maximum profit minimum outlay" Thatcher had this great idea that one man could do the work of 3 men so hundreds of thousands of workers were laid off.... she even banned the right to strike. All of this took its toll on industry and cost cutting and paring both staff and parts down to the bone became the "in thing" Gone were the halcion days of the seventies and early eighties where 5 men were doing one mans job and designers could throw exotic parts into their designs off a very well stocked shelf..... we were now in the era of the marketing man and the accountant where "cost" and paring designs down to the bone were the new "target"

This continues to this day and CD will soon be a thing of the past as vinyl sadly is (unless you've got a few thousand to buy a quality turntable) in 10 years time people will still be fed a diet of marketing mans ******** telling them how great the new "medium" is and how it can improve their listening experience....... well, it's already happening across the board with ipods and MP3 players (very cheap to produce sonically inadequate crap with massive profit mark ups) heck they don't even have a revolution to contend with like they did with the Vinyl junkies refusing to accept CD as the way to go...... people will accept what they're fed by the adverts these days and these "lifestyle" products are nothing more than glorified crystal radios in a plastic "trendy" enclosure.

It annoys me when people are brainwashed to think that "latest means greatest" and, I for one, don't accept (not for one moment) this arrogant misguided view that everything yesteryear is sonically inadequate to todays offerings........ in most instances the quality gear made years ago outclasses todays plastic blow moulded throwaway crap by quite some margin.

I can honestly say that the only CD player I have heard that was on a par with my much beloved CD850, which was unfortunately stolen, is my current Marantz CD17ki signature so I have to chip in with my comments in this thread..... the CD850 may be years old but it's a pedigree and will outclass and outlast many of todays players with consumate ease.

Quality will always out....... irrespective of time.

To summarize: Todays high end machines probably sound on a par / better / slightly not so good as those of yesteryear. To say that a budget machine of today will outperform a highly reviewed flagship player of yesteryear is pure nonsense....... I've yet to hear any modern CDP under £500 that sounds anywhere near as good as a Philips CD850. I've yet to hear anything under a grand that comes anywhere close to outperforming a Rotel RCD 965 BX LE discrete either...... another time another place

Pinkie.

Duncan, it may interest you to learn that Trichord still do a clock mod on the CD850. I never got around to trichording mine, as it was stolen, but people reported (at the time) that it's well worth doing.

 

[ampgalore]

I am not going to argue with you on this Pinkie or Duncan, or anyone else. I am not technically oriented.

All I am saying is that since you guys started this vintage PCDP market, you may succeed yet again on creating a vintage home CDP market. If it ever succeeds, I want to be on the bandwagon.

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ampgalore All I am saying is that since you guys started this vintage PCDP market, you may succeed yet again on creating a vintage home CDP market. If it ever succeeds, I want to be on the bandwagon.

"you guys" ?? I wouldn't take a PCDP in a gift, whether old or new, the concept of walking around with headphones and a PCDP strapped to my person repulses me in much the same way as Mobile phones and laptops do.

This is not an attempt to start a bandwagon and I couldn't give a flying fig whether or not anyone want's to hear a quality CDP of yesteryear....... they're as rare as rocking horse **** so chance of finding one would be a fine thing........

I have got nothing whatsoever to do with Duncans "vintage PCDP market" (whatever that is

) and I certainly don't want to be associated with PCDP's either past or present thanks! I won't go into detail but I detest PCDP's s whatever their vintage.

Just thought I'd clarify my position.

Pinkie.

Just in case the above is misunderstood I'll write it in stone:

[size=medium]I detest PCDP's whether old or new[/size]

 

[tom hankins]

High end CDP's from the past still sound good to me. The thing is you can get a new player that sounds as good for less bucks than the used(from the past) players nowadays. The thing alot of todays players give up is build quality. IMO almost everything you buy today is a vamped up Sony or philips transport with other Co. power supply and DAC. This is why I see know reason to not get one of the better Sonys and have it heavily modified (preferably tube output, beefed up power supply, etc.).

 

[bangraman]

I think older gear provides great bang for the buck at the used price. Just don't expect it to beat decent newer gear of the same effective quality / current price tag. As someone said, while analog has made relatively few forward strides since these players were released, digital has definitely come of age. That bit's better, and the digital extraction is the core of any CDP.


What some people, me included, raise concerns with is simply that many get an older player because they couldn't afford the equivalent new player, hear some great tunes and proclaim it better than the new players because their previous newer (low-cost) player was 'cack' in comparison. I've gone through a few formerly high-end sources which I bought used, players which I used to resolve to buy anything from 5-to-15-ish years ago and never got around to. A good way to shred any sense of nostalgia is to compare them in-depth against the current £2-£3K decks.


You'll find very few people who can afford them moaning about the sound quality of current mid to top drawer gear. If you can't, the used market is definitely the place to start.

 

[markl]

Digital is different than other kinds of components. It really has progressed markedly in recent times. I've owned a few of those old-school CDPs and some of the first aftermarket outboard DACs and even outboard clocking mechanisms. based on my small sample, I have the impression like most people that digital really has come a long way in recent times. And it's not all about the digital sections, either. If we believe Ray Samuels and others in the know, the crucial op-amps used in the analog sections of modern players have progressed appreciably in recent times, too.

Is it fair to compare a $2000 1990 CDP to a $200 2004 CDP? Probably not. But given a choice between a $200 1990 CDP and a $200 2004 CDP, knowing nothing else about them except price, it would be wisest to choose the 2004 model, IMO.

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman A good way to shred any sense of nostalgia is to compare them in-depth against the current £2-£3K decks.

hmmm..... or maybe spend a couple of hundred on mods? You're still saving a couple of grand. Have you heard a modded CD850 Bangra? Simple question, honest answer please.........

 

[bangraman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFloyd hmmm..... or maybe spend a couple of hundred on mods? You're still saving a couple of grand. Have you heard a modded CD850 Bangra? Simple question, honest answer please.........

No, I can't say I have. Have you heard an Accuphase DP-67? Meridian G08? Luxman DU-7? Sony XA9000ES? Or perhaps any modded versions of those?

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl Digital is different than other kinds of components. It really has progressed markedly in recent times. I've owned a few of those old-school CDPs and some of the first aftermarket outboard DACs and even outboard clocking mechanisms. based on my small sample, I have the impression like most people that digital really has come a long way in recent times. And it's not all about the digital sections, either. If we believe Ray Samuels and others in the know, the crucial op-amps used in the analog sections of modern players have progressed appreciably in recent times, too. Is it fair to compare a $2000 1990 CDP to a $200 2004 CDP? Probably not. But given a choice between a $200 1990 CDP and a $200 2004 CDP, knowing nothing else about them except price, it would be wisest to choose the 2004 model, IMO.

.

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman No, I can't say I have. Have you heard an Accuphase DP-67? Meridian G08? Luxman DU-7? Sony XA9000ES? Or perhaps any modded versions of those?

No, I haven't heard any of those Bangra. I have a Marantz CD 17 ki as my source. Far from "high end" I agree but just "how" much better will a Meridian G08 sound over Duncan's CD850? A few "thousand" pounds better??

Let's be realistic, put it into Perspective ,and factor in the law of diminishing returns. ££££ for an all singing, all dancing, modern CDP or £ for an old battleship........... you honestly reckon the extra few grand is worth it?

Mike.

 

[bangraman]

That bit's irrelevant to me Pink. I get a warranty, I don't have to get my hands dirty modding it and whatever player I buy makes nary a dent on my credit card in any case. You might as well ask someone who buys a present-day Porsche 911 why they don't buy an 80's job and tack some new wings and suspension onto it.


And besides you don't know, I don't know. I have owned and listened to a few low and higher-end Philips and Technics decks in the past, as well as a number of Sony ES decks from long ago. What I have now is quite a bit better.