why these days music from the 80s is intolerable to listen to

Aug 7, 2022 at 11:48 AM Post #151 of 264
I’ve no idea why you don’t hear this change.

G
Because I am an idiot who knows nothing, but opens the mouth anyway. I am not an expert of 80's music and I thought digital synths replaced analog synths later than around 1983. I am sorry I ever wrote anything in this thread.

If I correct my message "Late 60's to early 80's was the era of analog synth" I am probably LESS wrong...
 
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Aug 7, 2022 at 11:51 AM Post #152 of 264
It can be less musically transparent. Muddling the musical message. This is by definition a form of distortion, but not THD or IMD.
What does audio gear do to the signal to muddle the musical message? Phase distortion?
 
Aug 7, 2022 at 12:07 PM Post #153 of 264
It looks like you are projecting your hobby horse of spatiality where it doesn’t belong.
Sorry. I am stupid and I don't know where my hobby horse of spatiality belongs to.

Lexicon were trying to algorithmically recreate the effect of room acoustics on a direct/dry signal. They took no account at all of HRTFs and what they achieved is not very precise/accurate compared to what’s available today but it did/could sound good and still does today, which is why it’s still used by some/many.
I knew nothing about Lexicon 224 because I am a moron, but thanks to you I learn something.

My post was not about EXACT facts of music history, but rather MY personal subjective impression of 80's music in all its ignorance and my impression has been that it was an era of analog synths. I should have stated that clearly, but I DID NOT.

I have serious self-esteem issues and these things do not help. I need acceptance to believe myself, but I am not accepted anywhere, or at least I don't have a clue where I belong to. Only people like you know a lot about 80's music production. 99.999 % of people know as little as I do or even less. Whatever I have learned in life doesn't seem to make me knowledgeable online. I just know so little about everything and I can only wonder how people like you know so much. I also forget things easily and fast so I might have known a lot at some point in life, but it is all gone now.

Anyway, I gave my own view on this thread and what I did was not a crime, so everything is fine! I can continue my life as if nothing happened, forget this episode in my life and go back to the delusions that I know something and that my life has a meaning and purpose somehow.
 
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Aug 7, 2022 at 12:47 PM Post #154 of 264
That depends on what you mean by “not as good” and “improvement in spatial cues”. They certainly had functionality that wasn’t as good as plugins, you obviously only had one input and output, so when you needed two reverbs you had to buy 2 of them and at $8k each (Lexicon 224), which is probably $20k in today’s money, it’s not practical to have lots of them. While one plug-in gives you as many instances as you want. Same with spatiality, modern reverb plugins can give you 11.2 and other multichannel formats, while the early digital reverbs were only mono in, stereo out. However, you’ve picked a poor example here. While virtually all pro-audio digital devices from the late ‘70’s and even late ‘80’s and early ‘90’s can only be found in land-fills and the occasional museum, the first widely used digital reverb (Lexicon 224) is still prized today and a very accurate “modelled” plug-in of the 224 is still quite widely used.

G
Why was it impossible to use only one unit of Lexicon 224 and process the track individually one by one? What was the technical reason this was not possible?

The workflow I have in mind goes like this: Sent track one to Lexicon 224 with the proper adjustment and overdub track one reverb added. Then do the same for every other track. Sure, this takes time, but then again money is saved by having only one $8k unit. Maybe time alignment of the tracks goes off the trail, does it? It is easy to forget technical limitations of analog gear in the era of DAWs and computers...
 
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Aug 7, 2022 at 12:51 PM Post #155 of 264
Gregorio doesn’t always read comments to figure out what the person is saying first. He just hits reply and starts tearing up the context line by line, responding to each line individually. His longer posts are more valuable than his line by line replies.
 
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Aug 7, 2022 at 1:25 PM Post #156 of 264
Gregorio doesn’t always read comments to figure out what the person is saying first. He just hits reply and starts tearing up the context line by line, responding to each line individually. His longer posts are more valuable than his line by line replies.
Maybe the best thing to do to address this behavior is to post nothing. That way he has nothing to tear up...

...I am a VERY introverted person and socially very glumsy. Internet forums give me the opportunity to communicate with other people in my introverted style, but it is not only a blessing. I write too much online and often about things I know less than I think I know and when people wiser than me show me my place my weak self-esteem takes serious hits and it can take me a long time to recover mentally. It is possible the best I can do is stop communicating with other people online and be the hermit I was born to be and just concentrate on my own things. Keep everything my secret. Being ignorant and wrong is more fun when nobody knows to correct you.
 
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Aug 7, 2022 at 7:43 PM Post #158 of 264
Maybe the best thing to do to address this behavior is to post nothing. That way he has nothing to tear up...
I just parse it and filter out the wheat from the chafe. That’s what reading Internet forums is all about. I really don’t care about what people in forums think about me. My friends are in the real world and they like me fine. I also don’t care about status in the group. I’m not vying for the position of King of Sound Science like others here. I don’t mind being wrong as long as my questions are being heard and answered. That’s an opportunity to learn about new things. But I have no patience for poor communication skills or personality disorders. I’m not being paid to put up with that stuff. I blow right by it, and if that makes someone mad, I just don’t care.

It is kind of surprising to me how so many people here seem to constantly be engaging in circular, counter productive arguments. I guess they get some kind of pleasure out of it, or blabbering like Gargamel from the Smurfs fills some deep seated need in them.

I can filter that stuff. Although sometimes it is interesting to peek a little at perverse human nature.
 
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Aug 8, 2022 at 6:26 AM Post #161 of 264
Bingo.

That [phase distortion] is one aspect. Badly tuned ported speakers can add 10s of milliseconds of group delay above their tuned frequency, and mangle the transient response. Other gear can add to the problem.
Yes, speakers can have hideous group delay at low frequencies, but then again speakers are by far the least transparent part of an audio reproduction chain. Human hearing is quite insensitive to phase distortion, especially if it happens according to minimum phase principles, because such alterations to the phase response feel natural to us. Too much is of course too much and people should pay attention to how ported speakers are designed. It is pretty easy to design the bass to have a GOOD phase response, but there is always a price and that's available sound pressure level and possibly issues with harmonic distortion. Those who want to minimize speaker phase distortion can go for e.g. closed box speakers with a system Q value of about 0.577 ( 1/√3 ). Speakers are compromises between several aspects and everyone needs to select the speakers according to one's priorities. Those who don't like phase distortion should stay away from badly tuned ported speakers! If you own such speakers and you have to live with them, one solution is to clog the reflex ports and make the speakers closed. Available sound pressure level around tuning frequency will drop several decibels, but also phase distortion will become much smaller. Moving the speakers closer to the back wall may "restore" some of the sound pressure level, but what happens to the overall sound quality varies from case to case (room to room).

If we remove speakers from an audio chain, the rest of it has very little effect on group delay, at least on relevant frequency band. How do power amps or DACs create a massive group delay at 50 Hz? They don't.
 
Aug 8, 2022 at 8:39 AM Post #162 of 264
It can be less musically transparent. Muddling the musical message.
No, it cannot "be less musically transparent". It can be less audibly transparent and if that's the case, then it might affect the perception of "the musical message" but equally it would affect the perception of speech, noises and any sound/s that are not music. If you can show me some audiophile bit of gear with some sort of distortion (a lack of transparency) that only affects the music/"musical message" but doesn't affect any other sort of noise or sound, then you could make an argument for "musical transparency". Otherwise "musical transparency" is a nonsense term and you're just talking about transparency!
I have been talking about equipment's musical transparency, not playing its own tune. But if you must know that if you turned the pedantry down. Or you're just not listening, as usual.
Again, there's no such thing as "musical transparency" and I didn't mention anything about equipment playing it's own tune. However, that is effectively possible with harmonic distortion, although of course the DAC/Amp/whatever has no idea it's creating something that might be perceived as music and will produce that same distortion regardless of whether the signal it's fed represents music or some other sort of sound. And also of course, any DAC/Amp/whatever which actually did that, would be highly undesirable.

This isn't pedantry! It would be pedantry if it wasn't for the fact that this use of musical/musicality is so commonly used incorrectly in audiophile marketing to mislead consumers.
And yet it is called a "Musical saw". I think you should tell them off, like everyone else.
Why? A "musical saw" describes a saw used by musicians to create music, why should I "tell them off" for an accurate description?
I knew nothing about Lexicon 224 because I am a moron, but thanks to you I learn something.
How does not knowing about the Lexicon 224 make you stupid or a moron? It was a game changer in it's day but apart from old sound engineers around at the time or those well educated in the history of music/sound production, hardly anyone knows about it, including most geniuses (in other fields).
My post was not about EXACT facts of music history, but rather MY personal subjective impression of 80's music in all its ignorance and my impression has been that it was an era of analog synths. I should have stated that clearly, but I DID NOT.
Not knowing that the '80's was the decade which defined the move to digital synths from analogue synths is not stupid or moronic but if you don't know, then making the assertion (or even impression) that it was the era of analogue synths is slightly stupid. No need to beat yourself up over it though, we're all slightly stupid like this on occasion. I was slightly stupid to state that "musical saws" are identical to ordinary hand saws because although this is sometimes true, I now know that some musical saws are specifically designed to be musical saws. It would have been better to frame my statement as a question or to have looked up musical saws first.
Why was it impossible to use only one unit of Lexicon 224 and process the track individually one by one? What was the technical reason this was not possible?

The workflow I have in mind goes like this: Sent track one to Lexicon 224 with the proper adjustment and overdub track one reverb added. Then do the same for every other track. Sure, this takes time, but then again money is saved by having only one $8k unit.
Two reasons:

1. The 224 was a stereo reverb. So if we feed say the lead vox into the 224, we start with one recorded track (vox) but we have to bounce down two tracks (vox + stereo reverb). If we do the same with the lead guitar, bass guitar, snare and everything else, we would nearly double the number of recorded tracks required (except for original stereo recorded tracks). Bare in mind that pro audio recorders (digital or analogue) in the 1980's had a maximum of 24 tracks, all or most of which have already been recorded on, so there simply isn't the number of tracks available to do what you suggest. You could in theory buy another 24 track recorder but syncing them together was not very accurate or reliable and it's ten times cheaper to buy 2 x $8k Lexicon 224s than to buy 2 x $80k 24 track recorders.

2. Using the previous example of say the vox fed into the 224 and recording it down, what happens later in the mix process if we decide we need to EQ the vox slightly differently? We're screwed, the vox track has been overdubbed and no longer exists and we can't do anything to the vox without also affecting the reverb recorded with it. Likewise, we can't change anything about the reverb on this stereo track.

Put these two facts together and it's a no brainier. It's a vastly more flexible, superior workflow and far cheaper to have two 224's used with "sends" and "returns" and never bounce down the reverb until the final stereo mix.

G
 
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Aug 8, 2022 at 9:24 PM Post #163 of 264
No, it cannot "be less musically transparent". It can be less audibly transparent and if that's the case, then it might affect the perception of "the musical message" but equally it would affect the perception of speech, noises and any sound/s that are not music. If you can show me some audiophile bit of gear with some sort of distortion (a lack of transparency) that only affects the music/"musical message" but doesn't affect any other sort of noise or sound, then you could make an argument for "musical transparency". Otherwise "musical transparency" is a nonsense term and you're just talking about transparency!
No. I'm being specific. You usually chastise people who are not. I maintain that some equipment can be more musically transparent than others.
Again, there's no such thing as "musical transparency" and I didn't mention anything about equipment playing it's own tune. However, that is effectively possible with harmonic distortion, although of course the DAC/Amp/whatever has no idea it's creating something that might be perceived as music and will produce that same distortion regardless of whether the signal it's fed represents music or some other sort of sound. And also of course, any DAC/Amp/whatever which actually did that, would be highly undesirable.
Yes you did. You specifically mentions specific artist being musical, not the equipment. I have also specifically said it is nothing to do with harmonic distortion. Read more carefully if you want to counter. I also have not suggested the equipment "knows" anything. Stop putting words into peoples arguement to make your point of view. Equipment is not sentient.
This isn't pedantry! It would be pedantry if it wasn't for the fact that this use of musical/musicality is so commonly used incorrectly in audiophile marketing to mislead consumers.
Equally you are misleading consumers reading this if I am right.
Why? A "musical saw" describes a saw used by musicians to create music, why should I "tell them off" for an accurate description?
You tell us all off every time if we use a term you do not like (even if it is correct but not in your singular opinion). Why not others outside this forum?
 
Aug 8, 2022 at 9:38 PM Post #164 of 264
Yes, speakers can have hideous group delay at low frequencies, but then again speakers are by far the least transparent part of an audio reproduction chain. Human hearing is quite insensitive to phase distortion, especially if it happens according to minimum phase principles, because such alterations to the phase response feel natural to us. Too much is of course too much and people should pay attention to how ported speakers are designed. It is pretty easy to design the bass to have a GOOD phase response, but there is always a price and that's available sound pressure level and possibly issues with harmonic distortion. Those who want to minimize speaker phase distortion can go for e.g. closed box speakers with a system Q value of about 0.577 ( 1/√3 ). Speakers are compromises between several aspects and everyone needs to select the speakers according to one's priorities. Those who don't like phase distortion should stay away from badly tuned ported speakers! If you own such speakers and you have to live with them, one solution is to clog the reflex ports and make the speakers closed. Available sound pressure level around tuning frequency will drop several decibels, but also phase distortion will become much smaller. Moving the speakers closer to the back wall may "restore" some of the sound pressure level, but what happens to the overall sound quality varies from case to case (room to room).

If we remove speakers from an audio chain, the rest of it has very little effect on group delay, at least on relevant frequency band. How do power amps or DACs create a massive group delay at 50 Hz? They don't.
Agreed on most of that. It seems some designers know how to add a port or passive radiator, many do not. Seal/infinite baffle are usually far more benign in this area. Stuffing the port is not great as the woofer/cabinet will have been designed for ports.

Other gear can add group delay. One of the worst candidates are crossovers. Even Linkwitz Riley sub crossovers can add several milliseconds around the crossover region. Then all the high pass filters in the reproduction chain add up destructively. Looking at the time domain of transients before and after shows the distruction of the waveform.

There are other factors, but this area is not well researched.
 
Aug 9, 2022 at 2:24 AM Post #165 of 264
Agreed on most of that. It seems some designers know how to add a port or passive radiator, many do not. Seal/infinite baffle are usually far more benign in this area. Stuffing the port is not great as the woofer/cabinet will have been designed for ports.

Other gear can add group delay. One of the worst candidates are crossovers. Even Linkwitz Riley sub crossovers can add several milliseconds around the crossover region. Then all the high pass filters in the reproduction chain add up destructively. Looking at the time domain of transients before and after shows the distruction of the waveform.

There are other factors, but this area is not well researched.
Indeed,
It’s far more profitable to use readily available inexpensive drivers and control unwanted “out of band” driver distortions with higher order crossovers than use expensive drivers that are more controlled and a simpler, 6db/octave crossover, there’s plenty of relatively good sounding speakers using inexpensive components up to a certain level, after that the prices rise fairly quickly, and as usual with diminishing returns ….
 

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