bigshot
Headphoneus Supremus
Happy to help. I get a lot of great info from all of you too. Sound science is the best forum in head fi.
As an engineer who pays attention to measurements, you must realize measurements don't come close to telling the whole story of a sound profile. I'm sure that to all of you consummate engineering types, it would gall you to know how much markup is in a Rembrandt. How about a Rockwell? Eh, just paint your own and be done with it...you could actually even buy better quality paints and copy famous paintings using those better paints! What an improvement!
Who the heck cares if the artist's kids starve? How dare an artist mark up their art more than 35%!
Funny how we all choose different hobby horses to become passionate about. Our individual unique passions are, after all, the only ones that matter, everyone else's are bunk.
The problem with some manufacturers is that all of them make very wild sonic claims on how their cable is rejects evil spirits, is made up of extremely rare metals you only see in the periodic table and how their 7 or 9N cable processing technique relates to better sound when for most of the part, no listening test of any sort was done. Of course, if they only state how they build their cables it would be totally cool, but wild sonic claims are ridiculous.
Buying for art you say? What is art if its hidden behind your receiver? And with all these claims, it looks like they are selling engineering more than art to me.
As an engineer who pays attention to measurements, you must realize measurements don't come close to telling the whole story of a sound profile. I'm sure that to all of you consummate engineering types, it would gall you to know how much markup is in a Rembrandt. How about a Rockwell? Eh, just paint your own and be done with it...you could actually even buy better quality paints and copy famous paintings using those better paints! What an improvement!
Who the heck cares if the artist's kids starve? How dare an artist mark up their art more than 35%!
Funny how we all choose different hobby horses to become passionate about. Our individual unique passions are, after all, the only ones that matter, everyone else's are bunk.
Are you of the opinion that cable makers are artists? I'm not trying to sound demeaning, I'm just curious. Aesthetics are important certainly, but I don't consider cable design "art" personally.
Tubes are an active components in an electric circuit - meaning they can inject energy into the circuit (scientific and engineering fact), thus this puts them in a totally different category to passive components like cables. The possibility that tubes will alter a signal is orders of magnitudes higher than cables. While I won't go so far as to claim there must be an audible difference in sound between same models of tubes by different manufacturers/time/batch etc, I certainly won't say just because one who claims tubes can be different would lead credibility to that cables will be different by extension.
Nice post.
I generally avoid the 'sound science' forum, and I am unlikely to follow this thread any further. However, another head-fier pointed me to this post. It reminds me of a few thoughts I have had concerning this topic.
Let me preface this by saying although I refer to cognition below - specifically I pursued cognitive psychology to post-graduate levels (circa late 1990s), I am a social not a cognitive scientist and have not followed the cognitive literature for some years. If any cognitive scientists chance to read this, they may find it necessary to correct certain particulars.
More importantly, the idea below is hypothetical, a general and straight-forward deduction from recent (1990s) models of cognition.
Science only starts with deduction; it decides whether a hypothesis is a worthwhile contribution to one or other theory with testing. In science, any untested deduction/conclusion is, by itself, worthless.
The cable debate, and some others within head-fi, may relate to some details about how the brain/mind constructs or perceives. The way a cognitive psychologist puts this is that we interpret - subjectively speaking, we see - the world through cognitive 'schemata'. A schema is a framework we have 'learned' that dictates how our sense experience is processed. Specifically, schemata cause us to weight (up or down) different features of our sensory input to arrive - finally - at conscious perception.
There are several conditions - all have to be satisfied - in which such a schema might produce the experience of cables sounding different:
(1) First, for such a schema to develop we have either to 'believe' or be receptive to the notion cables could make a difference.
(2) Next, if we pick up some particular cable and have 'nice' experiences with it, it becomes connected - because that's what our schema does, it connects stored experiences and other elements in long-term memory - with a multitude of other compatible ('nice', if you like) elements within one's private audiophile-schemata. And vice versa.
(3) We need to 'know' which cable is connected.
All this being so, we will hear it differently, on account of that first, positive (or negative) experience. Over time, the schema will become elaborated and might intensify or lessen the on-going perception of "good" or "bad". It may alter perceptual filters, so that one literally 'hears' (lets through) details with one cable that one misses with another.
Interestingly - according to this model - if condition (3) is not satisfied - i.e., we don't know which cable is connected, it is likely we will no longer hear it differently.
The objectivist will say "see, no difference" and back it up with identical measurements. That misses the point.
The "better sounding cable" experience is not illusory for those whose schemata have developed in this way. It is an outcome of how we/they decode sense-experience.
So, it is subjective, and yet makes a real difference because we are 'subjective' beings. Rather than subjective, I would rather say we are neuro-cognitively complex. This is no different to the way we like some people and dislike others - whereas a close friend or our spouse experiences the 'same' person oppositely.
Let me repeat; this is purely hypothetical. Like any model, it attempts to explain particular data. Specifically, it would seem to account for these two data features:
a) some of us hear no cable differences - our audiophile schemata did not develop in this way - whereas others do
b) those who hear cable differences - and where the difference is not backed by objective measurements - do not succeed in picking these cables in DBT tests, according to frequent assertions on head-fi
I think we're blurring the distinction here between the fine arts and the applied arts.
se
I think there's some straw-hugging going on !
Why pick on cables ?
Because it is BS ..
Ignoring mechanical defects and the like ( to thin wires fex) it makes no difference
if your cable is a 2$ pr foot Mogami-wire or a 2500$ pr foot CryoSilver RattleSnake-Linseed oil silk-insulated 'cable' ..
Why not pick on valves ?
Because it DOES make a difference .
ESPECIALLY if you just swap them, without proper bias-adjustment .
But even then, a Mullard EL34 does sound and behave differently than a Svetlana in a Marshall-amp .
That's where valves belong : In instrument-amps !
I think we're blurring the distinction here between the fine arts and the applied arts.
se
Actually, I think we're talking about craft, not art. Craftsmanship is nicely made things. Art is a personal expression of an idea or feeling.
I guess that's the difference between art and artistic.