[mmwwhats]

I've noticed that with all their amps Single Power has increased their prices not so gradually and quite dramatically. I've asked SP why this is done and was told it's due to increases in parts cost... hmm. Woo Audio, that happens to use quite nice parts, hasn't increased their prices in years...

Here's an example:
SP Extreme, introduced in 2007 at an intro price of $899 after which it rose to $999.

I've contacted SP about 3 weeks ago about the price of the amp and was quoted $1199.

I then asked again very recently and the price increased to $1249.

The same has been done with the rest of their amps as well... In the 6 moons review of the MPX3 it's listed at $849, the price for a stock MPX3 now is $1249

Woo's WA4 introed in 2005 (I think) and has been the same price since... the same with the rest of his amps to my knowledge.

Is SP practicing "what the market can bear" marketing? Any co. has the right to charge what they want for their products, including SP. Let them go ahead and charge $10G for a PPX, but a) don't lie and say it's because the parts cost more and b) the community should be more vocal about the decreased value of these products as they perpetually climb to join the likes of Krell and others that make great products, no doubt, but charge prices laughably more than the products are worth (and please don't respond that a product is worth as much as a customer is willing to pay for it...)

 

[Uncle Erik]

Uh, parts really DO cost more these days. You've probably noticed the cost of gas going up and the steep drop of the US Peso, er, Dollar. Those mean higher costs for everything from manufacturing to transport.

There are a number of reasons why other manufacturers haven't increased prices. For one, they could have stockpiled parts when prices were better, so their costs didn't increase. Another is that some run ridiculous profit margins on their gear. Rule of thumb is usually 400% of parts to cover overhead, costs, labor, etc. and a modest return. Some run at a 600% to 1,000% markup. Takes a big pair of huevos and a lot of marketing to do that, but that also means price increases can be absorbed, which isn't possible for leaner operations.

I highly recommend you DIY an amp some time. You get to cut out labor and overhead costs, but you also get to see just how much components cost and what it takes to put them together.

 

[2deadeyes]

It can also be very well an increase in the demand of SP products?

 

[n_maher]

I also believe that the "stock" configuration of the MPX3 might have changed now so the previous price isn't really applicable at all.

And I'm sorry, I disagree with a great deal of what you said in your last paragraph. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmwwhats /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is SP practicing "what the market can bear" marketing? Any co. has the right to charge what they want for their products, including SP. Let them go ahead and charge $10G for a PPX, but a) don't lie and say it's because the parts cost more

I was fine with everything that you said, right up to the point that you said "don't lie...". With the value of the dollar these days, it doesn't surprise me at all that parts prices should be higher. Regardless, this is IMHO pointlessly combative to call someone a liar. We don't take too kindly to the use of these sorts of "fighting words" here at Head-Fi, and I'd appreciate it if you'd think twice before doing so again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmwwhats /img/forum/go_quote.gif the community should be more vocal about the decreased value of these products as they perpetually climb to join the likes of Krell and others that make great products, no doubt, but charge prices laughably more than the products are worth (and please don't respond that a product is worth as much as a customer is willing to pay for it...)

A product IS worth as much as a customer is willing to pay for it. Period. End of story.

The market is the final arbitor of worth. I see no reason why the community should be up in arms about this. If SinglePower produces products that are overpriced, then they will not sell. If they do sell at a higher price, why would any businessman (and, let's be frank here, SinglePower is not a Not-For-Profit venture organized to serve the headphone audio community) voluntarily lower his profit margin for no good reason?

 

[MaloS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmwwhats /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is SP practicing "what the market can bear" marketing? Any co. has the right to charge what they want for their products, including SP. Let them go ahead and charge $10G for a PPX, but a) don't lie and say it's because the parts cost more and b) the community should be more vocal about the decreased value of these products as they perpetually climb to join the likes of Krell and others that make great products, no doubt, but charge prices laughably more than the products are worth (and please don't respond that a product is worth as much as a customer is willing to pay for it...)

"And now, don't tell me the truth, because I cannot bear to hear it."

I wonder how crazy does difficulty of receiving a rebate drive you...

 

[PFKMan23]

Not to nitpick, but Woo Audio (among others like Headamp, Ray Samuels, Headroom) has raised their prices since release. That being said, all you have to do is simply choose not to buy their products. In any case, a headphone amp is a luxury good so you can just choose another one of the many companies that build amps and buy one of their amps, or go hire someone else to build an amp. There really isn't some conspiracy like you want to believe though.

 

[jeffreyj900]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif I also believe that the "stock" configuration of the MPX3 might have changed now so the previous price isn't really applicable at all. And I'm sorry, I disagree with a great deal of what you said in your last paragraph. I'll just leave it at that.

x2 on all of that....

I was quoted the same price for an MPX3. From his e-mail.... "The MPX3 comes with Solen upgrade, revised circuitry now including 4 filtration stages, and SE power supply circuitry. This is equivlanet to the Slam power supply".

I believe Mikhail is always tweaking and changing things to make his amps better. As he does that, gets a better name for his company, etc. I would expect that over time the price would increase. If I didn't I woulldn't buy it. Pretty simple really.

Jeff

 

[jsaliga]

Well, I'll chime in with some support for the OP. While I think the "lie" comment was uncalled for, it doesn't help to blindly defend marketing and pricing practices simply because SinglePower is the subject of the thread.

A customer questioning pricing policies is absolutely fair game and it is something every business person better be prepared to deal with if they want to stay in business. If these numbers are correct (and I don't know that they are) then there has been a 32.9% price increase in the MPX3 in a little over a year's time. And lets not get into a cost of parts debate. The cost of parts typically represents a small fraction of the price of audio gear, and I doubt that SP is somehow an exception.

With that said it is fair for people to say that the updated configuration of the MPX3 easily justifies a $400 price increase over what it sold for last year. Just like it is fair for others to conclude there is not enough of a value proposition to justify the price hike.

Products are generally priced at what the market will bear. And it is also true that the higher the price, the smaller the potential market -- all other things held equal. It's a business fact of life. It is also true that if SinglePower is having problems keeping up with orders and is unable to increase production, then increasing the price of the product to shrink demand is a legitimate way to control problems with the rate of production. The "value" to the customer in this case is shorter delivery time. And while some customers might not see value in that, some clearly do.

--Jerome

 

[mmwwhats]

Alot of violent reactions to my comments. No, I don't believe this is a conspiracy theory. Yes, I do know I can choose not to buy their products. No, I don't take well to implied threats as in "[we don't take well to fighting words] here at Head-Fi, and I'd appreciate it if you'd think twice before doing so again." I've been around the block and have heard some of the most acclaimed and expensive gear extant, and some of it is just not any better than modestly priced gear. However, there is a perpetuated ideology that in audio if it's insanely expensive then it's probably insanely good, but too many times it's just so not true. Either way, I wont get into a rant here; I simply started this thread because I wanted to know if SP products are worth their price or if they are beginning to become wildly overpriced. I was hoping to hear from people who actually have experience in the matter (like some of you who commented do) and not just people who have opinions in the matter.

 

[jsaliga]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFKMan23 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not to nitpick, but Woo Audio has raised their prices since release.

I can tell you for sure that the Woo Audio 2 is selling right now for exactly the same price that I paid for mine some 14 months ago. There are options available today that can make it more expensive, but those options were not available when I ordered my WA2. I see the WA5 has gone up by $55 since last year, but since we are talking about a $3,000 rig I doubt too many people will notice.

--Jerome

 

[elrod-tom]

With all due respect, there was nothing at all "violent" about any of the responses here. Considering that you entered this thread calling someone a liar, I think that people behaved with a restraint that some might argue was not deserved.

As for "implied threats", I'm simply letting you know that your tone (entering a thread calling someone a liar) is generally not appreciated. As a moderator, I am in a position that requires me to let you know just that. My job is to keep the peace, and when you start a thread that way, it's uncivil and IMHO unfair...and one could reasonably question whether you're looking to start a flame war.

So...feel free to take as well to that as you like, but if you step out of line here (as you did IMHO) you can expect to be called out. Call that a threat, implied or otherwise, if you like...I prefer to think of it as a necessary reminder that civil discourse is appreciated and expected here.

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmwwhats /img/forum/go_quote.gif I simply started this thread because I wanted to know if SP products are worth their price or if they are beginning to become wildly overpriced.

No one can tell you that. 10 people could listen to the same SP amp setup at the same time, yet any number of them could declare them to be overpriced and some could declare they've reached Shangri-La.

 

[tom hankins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsaliga /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, I'll chime in with some support for the OP. While I think the "lie" comment was uncalled for, it doesn't help to blindly defend marketing and pricing practices simply because SinglePower is the subject of the thread. A customer questioning pricing policies is absolutely fair game and it is something every business person better be prepared to deal with if they want to stay in business. If these numbers are correct (and I don't know that they are) then there has been a 32.9% price increase in the MPX3 in a little over a year's time. And lets not get into a cost of parts debate. The cost of parts typically represents a small fraction of the price of audio gear, and I doubt that SP is somehow an exception. With that said it is fair for people to say that the updated configuration of the MPX3 easily justifies a $400 price increase over what it sold for last year. Just like it is fair for others to conclude there is not enough of a value proposition to justify the price hike. Products are generally priced at what the market will bear. And it is also true that the higher the price, the smaller the potential market -- all other things held equal. It's a business fact of life. It is also true that if SinglePower is having problems keeping up with orders and is unable to increase production, then increasing the price of the product to shrink demand is a legitimate way to control problems with the rate of production. The "value" to the customer in this case is shorter delivery time. And while some customers might not see value in that, some clearly do. --Jerome

So your saying SP has raised the prices, so he will PURPOSLEY LOOSE SALES, and then be able to catch up on back orders.

Are you freaking kidding me?

 

[jsaliga]

No, I'm not kidding you. And if you don't get it then I'm not going waste a second of my time trying to enlighten you.

--Jerome