[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chri5peed I can see that, so conversely vinyl couldn't touch the digital playback of a solo on an electronic instrument, e.g. a keyboard.

You would think that but the strangest thing is that electronic music generally sounds excellent on high-end vinyl and valves type set ups.

You have to remember that most people who make electronic music prefer analogue synthesisors because of their richer warmer sound and while this may be mixed in with digital synthsesis, this is for the most part these days the application of various algorythms to samples of so called "real" instruments.

You don't have to look very far to see "analogue modelling" emablazoned all over modern synths or witness the popularity of "virtual analogue modelling" softare like Propellerheads Reason. I even saw a new Korg Electribe yesterday with two Electro Harmonix Tubes framed in a little window in the middle of the fascia.

Add to this that all the most cutting edge electronic music is released on vinyl and sometimes doesn't ever make it to CD and you have the slightly ironic scenario that people who make and listen to music completely dependant on computers are the strongest advocates of analogue.

Without the dance music scene there would be no vinyl being produced today as 12" singles are the one format which has refused to be superceded by any digital one and has grown year on year since it's inception in the early 80's.

The same is true of Reel to Reel tape in the studio world although this would have probably vanished last year when Ampex/Quantegy got into difficulties if it wasn't still used by NASA and the US govenrment.

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chri5peed I can see that, so conversely vinyl couldn't touch the digital playback of a solo on an electronic instrument, e.g. a keyboard.

For every vinyl lover who says things like "digital can't reproduce the sound of strings or voices," there is an audiophile who swears by digital and its virtues. I used to have a high end vinyl rig (VPI superscoutmaster, Grado Statement and Ray Samuels XR-10B), but I dumped it b/c I did not feel vinyl was superior in sound quality. I do believe that poor recording/mastering has many CDs and SACDs sounding bad, but there are plenty of recordings that sound amazing, with crystal clear voices and instrumentation that sound as close to the real thing as I've heard. Everyone has their opinion, but statments about vinyl being superior to digital or vice versa are just indications of preference, with plenty of supporters in both camps.

 

[trains are bad]

But, uh, none of that has anything to do with the actual record material and its suitability for the task...

 

[Chri5peed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleestack For every vinyl lover who says things like "digital can't reproduce the sound of strings or voices," there is an audiophile who swears by digital and its virtues. I used to have a high end vinyl rig (VPI superscoutmaster, Grado Statement and Ray Samuels XR-10B), but I dumped it b/c I did not feel vinyl was superior in sound quality. I do believe that poor recording/mastering has many CDs and SACDs sounding bad, but there are plenty of recordings that sound amazing, with crystal clear voices and instrumentation that sound as close to the real thing as I've heard. Everyone has their opinion, but statments about vinyl being superior to digital or vice versa are just indications of preference, with plenty of supporters in both camps.

I'm of the firm belief that bad recordings, in analogue or digital make a lot more of a difference on the outputted sound quality than the quality of the source or headphone/speaker.
I have many albums in my collection that sound nothing special and others that blow me away.

I'm always surprised this is not mentioned. Theres always bitrate squabbles, a good album in 192 could easily beat a bad one in 320.

 

[sejarzo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trains are bad But, uh, none of that has anything to do with the actual record material and its suitability for the task...

Right, and sorry for my part in taking this OT.

One might ask the question--presuming that we are still talking about the current mechanism of using a cartridge/cantilever/stylus system to track a groove--is there any material that can reduce or eliminate any of the problems that exist with vinyl without introducing other manufacturing issues?

I'm a chemical engineer with a fair amount of polymer experience, and I can say this: the marketing groups that drive R&D at any major polymer company would take one look at sales figures that show CD's outsell LP's by a factor of roughly 700 to 1, then without hesitation decide to (1) never do a thing to improve the products used to make LP's and (2) push R&D to come up with cheaper alternatives to the polycarbonate now used in CD's.

That's the state of thinking now in the industry--save money on the big stuff, not to make better products for what are essentially tiny markets. A market of about 1 million LP's pressed with 180 grams of vinyl each translates to a net market of less than 400,000 lb/yr of a specialty product. Worldwide production of polyvinyl chloride is about 66 billion lb/yr......and thus only about 0.0005% of that production goes into LP vinyl at this time.

About your only hope is that some audiophile LP manufacturer conducts independent research using existing materials and comes up with a new compound produced from stuff that's already on the shelf.

 

[sejarzo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garbz CDs need compression just as much as vinyl. It's applied in different ways but I've heard a CD with the original tracks just dumped straight to 2channels. It was horrible. The end result sounded more dynamic after compression was carefully applied.

I presume that you are primarily referring to mixed-down recordings made of amplified instruments that are EQ'd. But that certainly is not the case across the whole music industry!

In the back of the booklet on Telarc CD's, one normally finds the following comment:

"The signal was not passed through any processing device (i.e., compression, limiting, or equalization) at any step during production."

And in general, most folks agree that Telarc produces recordings with uniform and extremely natural sonics. Compression isn't needed when an acoustic recording is done properly--the right mics in the right places, for instance.

 

[ChiasticSlide]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 have you ever bought used vinyl?? Funny that new vinyl outsells SACD and DVDA combined wonder why could it be that even with a non degrading memdium it's still inferior I have bought 40 year old vinyl that smokes SACD and redbook

That's a pretty meaningless statistic. Much of that vinyl that is sold today are dance music singles. Vinyl is entrenched in the dance music community and isn't really used for technical reasons. There is more dance music available on vinyl than CD, and probably more than ANY kind of music on SACD and DVD-A.

 

[Garbz]

The arguement doesn't really apply to companies who spend an extra ordinary ammount of time recording. Telarc Chesky et al. Are the kind of companies who take the recording studio in the subway station or to a church to create the ambience. Then they use vastly different mic setups like fig-8 setups to get the stereo sound and the ambience. Then they record it right first time.

I was talking strictly modern studio recordings. We used to have a studio at school the kids never knew how to use the compressors, and judging by their most recent recordings still dont. But the record I was thinking of was from a friends band in Caboolture. It was a standard thing, put a bunch of people in a small room throw a mic in front of them and fix it up at the mastering level. The un mastered version sounds like something you'd expect through a $100 hifi even through my main system. The final where only compressions and a delay effect was applied sounds a lot more lifelike (though admittedly still underbudgeted).

I don't buy that the only good compressor is a dead compressor, infact while it often breaks music, it can really make it too.

 

[jp11801]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiasticSlide That's a pretty meaningless statistic. Much of that vinyl that is sold today are dance music singles. Vinyl is entrenched in the dance music community and isn't really used for technical reasons. There is more dance music available on vinyl than CD, and probably more than ANY kind of music on SACD and DVD-A.

actually if you take just a moment and actually look at the stat you will see 12 inch singles have their own catagory and are not included in full lenght lp sales. If you have another moment try elusivedisc.com to get an idea of the depth of music available on vinyl

 

[hYdrociTy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool You would think that but the strangest thing is that electronic music generally sounds excellent on high-end vinyl and valves type set ups. You have to remember that most people who make electronic music prefer analogue synthesisors because of their richer warmer sound and while this may be mixed in with digital synthsesis, this is for the most part these days the application of various algorythms to samples of so called "real" instruments. You don't have to look very far to see "analogue modelling" emablazoned all over modern synths or witness the popularity of "virtual analogue modelling" softare like Propellerheads Reason. I even saw a new Korg Electribe yesterday with two Electro Harmonix Tubes framed in a little window in the middle of the fascia. Add to this that all the most cutting edge electronic music is released on vinyl and sometimes doesn't ever make it to CD and you have the slightly ironic scenario that people who make and listen to music completely dependant on computers are the strongest advocates of analogue. Without the dance music scene there would be no vinyl being produced today as 12" singles are the one format which has refused to be superceded by any digital one and has grown year on year since it's inception in the early 80's.

True that.. Dont people "enjoy" music anymore? to me it is an experience. Its something interactive, in which the gear, the enviornment and my mood all mesh together. I like to watch the tubes glow, like to see the slow spin of a turntable, and love to just stare at nice cables

. Sometimes the mood is right for vinyl, such as when im alone, or if im really excited and play all my electronica and dance records on a table and try to demonstrate my limited turntablist skills. No one invites friends over so they can "spin" some cds and dance..

On the other hand laser disks DO have their ups. Think about it . First of all a disc is also a circular spinning object that may also look cool if they were spinning in some nice audiophile equipment that is all transparent and you see the thing spin around. Secondly, for the portability issue. I would rather listen to my "cold" and "compressed to hell" cds rather than nothing at all in the car or walking around (well cd in aiff fomat in a dap).

As for the sound... Its also based on your mood. Sometimes with dance music the bass is much more fat with a table than the same thing on laser disc. The "noise" is very attractive, especially when appropriate. I guess I lean more towards vinyl for gear fetishy since there is more gear involved but right now i dont have a good table.

One day I will build a setup that simultaneously plays the same music from sacd and a table and then have the channels soldered to the same terminals on a tube preamp then finally through SS monoblocks and nice speakers and end this charade once and for all with the ultimate combined analog digital solid state tube boxx of soundage

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trains are bad But, uh, none of that has anything to do with the actual record material and its suitability for the task...

Vinyl has a few properties that make it excellent for microgroove sound reproduction... First of all, it has very fine molding properties, making it able to reproduce the tiny modulations in the groove with a low noise floor. Secondly, it is flexible and not subject to shattering and cracks like shellac records. Thirdly, vinyl has a "memory" which allows the needle to track the groove, forcing it apart slightly, after which the groove walls spring back to their original shape.

See ya
Steve

 

[lini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool There was definitely a fall in quality in the mid 1980's (...)

Just for the record (*lol*), for myself, I found that a lot of the problems were actually packaging/storage related - i.e., as a lot of the records to be found in the stores from the mid 80s on were individually blistered, often enough stored horizontally in heaps and came with cheap paper inner sleeves, the latter stuck so tighly to new records that these were almost impossible to take out without already producing a lot of tiny scratches on the surface, not to mention the horrible static charge.

After realizing that, the solution became quite apparent: Instead of trying to fumble a new record directly out of its original inner sleeve, I left it in and took a quality Nagaoka 102 (recommended!) sleeve upside down, put that over the record, then turned the whole affair around and thus could easily let the record slip out unscratched and with already significantly reduced static charge. And I'd generally recommend those Nagaokas (or other quality inner sleeves) for storage of all the records that only came with standard paper inner sleeves, anyway.

Greetings from Hannover!

Manfred / lini

 

[Karlosak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueworm http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...yrEndStats.pdf

That report is highly misleading. It covers only labels subscribed to RIAA, so small labels (e.g. Pentatone, Telarc, Channel Classics, Linn, Capriccio etc.) are not included, which produce most of the SACDs and DVD-As these days.
Differentiating single inventory hybrid SACDs may well be another factor. There is a speculation that much of the hybrids are counted as plain CDs to avoid double count. In such case, these numbers would be totally off.
Last, much of the SACD business is done outside the States nowadays.

sa-cd.net discussion

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssportclay Vinyl is still the very best given the cost and quality of the process.

Simply the selection is better, you can find more albums in LPs than in SACD or DVD-A...also price, used vinyl is really cheap...

 

[Geoff Rymer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 actually if you take just a moment and actually look at the stat you will see 12 inch singles have their own catagory and are not included in full lenght lp sales. If you have another moment try elusivedisc.com to get an idea of the depth of music available on vinyl

Sweet jesus what have you done to my wallet? Dammit, that site is awesome.