Why do USB cables make such a difference?

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Sep 16, 2017 at 1:34 PM Post #196 of 1,606
You have serious issues then. I also have a liquid cooled pc, dual graphics cards about 13 fans in my system and using a 12.00 led Amazon sub cable and my dac is dead silent when I have hooked up several.

This is just to show that USB carries also noise, and does prove the point. The same is true for other noise sources such as from switching power supplies, however since they are high frequency you don't listen directly to them (the capacitors in your system will see this noise though).

I don't use this PC for audio at all, I have a separate setup for the stereo.
 
Sep 16, 2017 at 1:40 PM Post #197 of 1,606
This is just to show that USB carries also noise, and does prove the point. The same is true for other noise sources such as from switching power supplies, however since they are high frequency you don't listen directly to them (the capacitors in your system will see this noise though).

I don't use this PC for audio at all, I have a separate setup for the stereo.
Yes I adjusted my post. In some circumstances there can be times where noise can be transferred. The solution would not be buy an expensive usb cable but fix the source. The noise is not a sound signature though for Just for Cartma reference. It is not supposed to be there. Usually would see this problem with a usb powered dac vs a externally powered dac by a wallwart.
 
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Sep 16, 2017 at 1:53 PM Post #198 of 1,606
Unfortunately I don't have a mini to mini cable with me and i will be out on a business trip next week, otherwise I would record it for all to listen. Perhaps I can do it on the way back. As I suggested before, it is fairly easy to verify that USB cables don't carry only digital signals but they carry any electrical noise that is fed straight through the USB interface and DAC chip unles it's filtered out on the way.

I have a liquid cooled PC with PWM fans and a pump. When I connect it to my Mojo via USB, I hear a high frequency clicking noise through the headphones. No digital signal whatsoever passing through the cables. The Mojo is dead silent when disconnected, when connected to my Android phone in airplane mode or through my ultraRendu+LPS1 combo (all without any audio stream through the USB). I also don't hear clicking noise when the PC is connected directly to my stereo DAC - the reason is that the stereo DAC does not connect the USB power.

I don't see how one could explain this without acknowledging that USB cables carry more than "1s and 0s".

The situation you are facing is not due to '0' and '1' being altered or modified but to 'noise' currants circulating through Vbus/Ground cables.
 
Sep 16, 2017 at 1:54 PM Post #199 of 1,606
Sure mate, noise is much more of an issue in AC powered systems. With battery powered it should not be a problem - therefore I wouldn't even bother with that with a portable DAP. From the other side, portable gear have RF issues since they have very little shielding compared to full sized equipment (the Mojo is particularly bad in this respect compared to my other gear).

You're right that electrical issues are worse on USB powered DACs. Aside from getting good quality power from the USB, there is the problem of feeding a high current through the +5V rail which can be in the order of 1A. This current creates a magnetic field which in turn upsets the signal rails. I read from John Svenson (I think - quoting from memory) wrote that in theory this should be taken care by the USB design, since by design the USB signal is balanced but in practice it does not work so well. Self powered DACs are much better in this respect.
 
Sep 16, 2017 at 2:03 PM Post #200 of 1,606
Sure mate, noise is much more of an issue in AC powered systems. With battery powered it should not be a problem - therefore I wouldn't even bother with that with a portable DAP. From the other side, portable gear have RF issues since they have very little shielding compared to full sized equipment (the Mojo is particularly bad in this respect compared to my other gear).

You're right that electrical issues are worse on USB powered DACs. Aside from getting good quality power from the USB, there is the problem of feeding a high current through the +5V rail which can be in the order of 1A. This current creates a magnetic field which in turn upsets the signal rails. I read from John Svenson (I think - quoting from memory) wrote that in theory this should be taken care by the USB design, since by design the USB signal is balanced but in practice it does not work so well. Self powered DACs are much better in this respect.
Thats the whole reason I went with a dac for this system I was getting horrid noise out of the speakers through the sound card when I moved and had to get rid of my good speakers that were run off spdif. When I hook headphones into my speakers I hear so much noise from the pc and the motherboard. I had to have a seperate dac and amp to isolate the noise. Watercooling is a noisy environment.
The situation you are facing is not due to '0' and '1' being altered or modified but to 'noise' currants circulating through Vbus/Ground cables.
Yes and does not need burn in either. For Cartma benefit. Again something in the source needs to be fixed to prevent this or the cable is faulty and needs replaced but not with an expensive one.
 
Sep 16, 2017 at 3:28 PM Post #201 of 1,606
Again, this PC is not part of my audio setup is just my old gaming PC.

The situation you are facing is not due to '0' and '1' being altered or modified but to 'noise' currants circulating through Vbus/Ground cables.

If noise gets passed to the analog circuitry it may indeed alter the sound. There is also the problem of leaking currents through the ground connection, which is an audible effect transmitted by the cable however switching the cable should not change this as far as I understand. An excellent discussion is here:

https://uptoneaudio.com/pages/j-swenson-tech-corner

Another effect that I didn't see yet mentioned is the cable impedance. USB cables have nominally 90 Ohms impedance. As far as I understand, deviations from the spec may affect the signal rise time of the digital signal, which incurrs in jitter - the data itself should be quite robust to it, therefore you still get no errors in hte data transmission. The worst case is when there is differential impedance between the data paths which may completely mess up the timing of the signal. How exactly does this degrade the signal in an asynchronous USB setup I don't exactly understand, however as usual the devil is in the details. This is discussed for example here.
 
Sep 16, 2017 at 4:42 PM Post #202 of 1,606
Hey theorist,

I keep losing the low end impact. Did you find this with your Nordost as they burned in? I noticed this with another Nordost system. Has to be the USB cable as its they only thing I changed in quite some time.

Sorry for my slow reply to you Cartma, but yesterday I was rather busy testing USB cables with a friend. I am yet to complete writing up my report which I will post later today on this thread, once finished. While the results will not surprise you, or others of our camp, they will put the cat among the pigeons for those who believe that all properly made to spec USB cables must sound identical, ie they can have no impact on the overall system sound.

Anyhow, in the burn-in of my Nordost Valhalla 2 USB cable (Nordost recommended 200 hours of burn-in for that cable) back in February, I did experience some issues after about 50 hours of burn-in which I reported in post #32 of this thread at the end of last month. Of course, it set the usual band of our friends saying that what I reported, and could actually measure (crudely by using the clock bandwidth settings of my Vega DAC), cannot possibly happen with an USB cable, as there is no such thing of burn-in effects with digital cables. Anyhow, this was not a loss of 'low end impact', rather an issue of what I assumed was to do with increased jitter caused somehow by the cable (as this was the only factor of change in the system), and it did come good again after about another 50 hours of further burn-in.
 
Sep 16, 2017 at 5:17 PM Post #203 of 1,606
Thats the whole reason I went with a dac for this system I was getting horrid noise out of the speakers through the sound card when I moved and had to get rid of my good speakers that were run off spdif. When I hook headphones into my speakers I hear so much noise from the pc and the motherboard. I had to have a seperate dac and amp to isolate the noise. Watercooling is a noisy environment.

The micro/ultraRendu is a nice option to power a DAC without external power supply. However, if you use your computer for videos or gaming it will not work nicely since there is some lag due to buffering. Probably a Regen would work well, not sure if it has appreciable delay. They are able to isolate the source and provide clean power to the DAC (as long as you power them with a good PSU). In the past, I used SPDIF from the computer, nowadays couldn't care less about the PC sound anymore - just rarelyI hook my RSA Predator to it.
 
Sep 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Post #204 of 1,606
I use the Modi multibit and the vali 2 and works quite well when headphones are needed. I have spdif and usb hooked up and neither has any noise for my gaming pc.
 
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Sep 16, 2017 at 5:59 PM Post #205 of 1,606
USB Cable Double-blind Shoot Out.

First off, double-blind testing is exhausting work, if interesting!

I compared three USB A/B cables:

· a generic Belkin 1.8 m cable that costs locally about US$12 (originally, I was going to use the ‘free’ one that came with my Auralic Vega DAC, but the one I had to hand that I thought this was turned out to be an A/Micro from one of my DAPs when I looked more closely at it);

· a 1m Tellurium Q Blue with a UK list price of £186 (about US$250); and,

· a 1m Nordost Valhalla 2 with a US list at US$3,500 (although I doubt if anyone ever pays near this, I certainly did not).

You can see my rig and set up below, its connected fully balanced. I used my Focal Utopias, which I find my best resolving of HPs for critical listening. To get as close to actual double-blind as possible (I could still hear my friend’s cable changing) I reversed my Eames lounge chair and ottoman facing away from my gear and sat about 1.5 metres away (as far as my 6 ft. Heimdall 2 balanced HP cable would permit). I did not look behind me for the over two hours of careful listening, except when taking a 10 minute break between each round of USB cable pairs (with the first cable being inserted for the next round only after I looked away). Following gregorio’s suggested protocol we agreed to not talk while testing, with my friend writing the cable in order of use for each pairing and me the decision whether the second cable was ‘better/worse’ than the first for each pairing, but we modified this while underway (see below).

Let’s call my friend Freud. I’m sure you can get the psychoanalytical reference, if not, google “Freud’s couch” (Freud intentionally sat out of sight of his patient to avoid giving visual facial clues) and think how my Eames chair/ottoman was now arranged. The only influence I was under during the listening was coffee. But, after we finished, believe me, we both deserved something stronger and accordingly had a nice dram of malt whisky!

I listen to the same track, or part of it, over and over, twenty times for each cable pairing round. This was Laura Marling’s ‘The Valley’ from Semper Femina (5:40).

At first, we followed the protocol suggested by gregorio, but modified it after the third pairing of the first round to avoid what proved to be unnecessary long listening times. In the first round’s first three pairings of listens with each cable, I went through the full track once with each cable before writing my decision down of better or worse after hearing the second cable. However, by the third pairing of the first Belkin/Nordost round, I pretty confidentially thought I knew very early in the listening of the track which cable was being used, and so, breaking the silence protocol, I stated which cable I thought was which at the end of this third pairing after writing down my better/worse answer. Freud confirmed that I was correct. So, we modified the protocol for the rest of the first round and then largely followed this in the subsequent two rounds, where we then played through the full track twice only for the first pairing of each round.

Subsequently, I called out, which cable I thought it was and if it was the second cable, wrote down if it was better/worse, Freud then stopped the track and changed the cable over. In addition, following gregorio’s other protocol suggestion, rather than swapping each cable ten times in the 10 pair round, one after the other in random order; once for each cable in each round (but never the first pairing), Freud only pretended to change the cable, when he had not (while unplugging and then re-plugging it – since I could hear the sound of cable changing in my seat, similarly he did the unplugging/re-plugging if the cable order was changed for the next pairing, as the same cable played immediately again in the new paired test).

Findings Round One – Belkin vs Nordost Valhalla 2:

Better: Nordost 4, Worse: Belkin 4, Same cable: twice correctly identified

There were subtle but consistent differences between both cables that were readily apparent from the very first pairing. The guitar ‘E’ base string strum/thumb pick (I assume) at the start and then after 15 seconds every five or so seconds was almost without significant musical consequence with the Belkin, it was there but just part of the overall musical background, while with the Nordost, it stood out and gave a foundation and important structure to the rest of the music being presented. Further, and especially after about halfway through the track the Belkin, relatively speaking, presented the music sounding thicker, more like a treacle, with all the individual components merged/stuck together – with little palpability/separation – and there was especially little or no separation of the violins, in contrast to what I could hear distinctly with the Nordost cable. Put simply and metaphorically, the Nordost made me more relaxed when listen to the whole presentation and the musical bits and spaces between the musical notes within it, while the Belkin made me unconsciously tense-up at the lumpy undifferentiated mass being presented that was hard and unattractive to audibly digest. But despite this rather extreme way that I have expressed what I heard in trying to describe the differences I perceived between the two cables, these were actually pretty small differences of overall scale – hardly night and day – and unlikely to be noticed without concentrated attention and careful listening to the music of the same track with the two very different in price cables.

Findings Round Two – Tellurium Q Blue vs Belkin:

Better: Tellurium 4, Worse: Belkin 4, Same: twice correctly identified

A bit of non-blind corruption here, I already knew the ‘treacle-ly’ sound of the Belkin from the first dual pairing and the dynamic liveliness of the Tellurium (which is the Tellurium house sound for all their types of cables, including digital) just jumped out at me from the first few seconds of listening (even though I have not used this cable at all for a couple of years). Indeed, the differences were even more strongly initially apparent that the differences with the Nordost, with the Tellurium undoubtedly sounding better and more musically interesting.

Findings Round Three – Tellurium Q Blue vs Nordost Valhalla 2:

Better: Nordost 4, Worse: Tellurium 4, Same: twice correctly identified

Some expectation bias could easily be occurring here. I knew which cable was which from the first few seconds of listening to each. So, it is understandable to choose the one I dropped over ten times as much on as better, but ultimately the Nordost was, at least for me, just a more relaxed and enjoyable listen with greater palpability. While the Tellurium ‘sounded’ in some ways more musically dynamic, it was also a bit etched/outlined or leading-edged focused with the substance of the music notes themselves a bit shallow and hollow, at least compared to the Nordost, whose sound I clearly preferred.

Discussion:

Amazingly, despite the very clear result, I was surprised by how similar these very different in price cables actually were. I can see why people can say all USB cables sound the same to them. These were not in your face differences that I heard. Indeed, I would probably not care about them at all, if I could even hear them, when driving in my car with music shuffling MP3 mode from my old iPod to the car stereo. Rather, these differences are the kind of things you are looking for and hope to achieve with your rig in our hobby when seriously listening, in our impossible, hence endless search for some absolute ‘perfect’ sound (which we know can’t exist).

Addendum:

Understandably, Freud wanted a listen. He is no Head-Flyer or audiophile, his iPhone and buds are his thing when he does bother to listen to music (and he actually prefers watching YouTube videos). So, we swapped roles (and with malt in hand), he listed to the full track twice with the, unknown to him, first the Belkin cable followed by the Nordost. When asked if the second cable was better or worse, Freud replied they sounded exactly the same. I then suggested that he just listen to the effect of the base note at the very start and then repeated about 15 seconds later and then a few seconds later and so on and compare the two cables just based on the sound of those base notes. I played about the first minute of the track, changed cables, and replayed the first minute again. Freud said: ‘do it again’. After the third pairing he said: ‘the Nordost was the second cable, wasn’t it?’ I said: ‘yap’!

PS In an ideal world I wish I could have done this test with chef8489 also just to for the great discussion we would have had afterwards!
 
Sep 17, 2017 at 6:13 AM Post #206 of 1,606
Again, this PC is not part of my audio setup is just my old gaming PC.



If noise gets passed to the analog circuitry it may indeed alter the sound. There is also the problem of leaking currents through the ground connection, which is an audible effect transmitted by the cable however switching the cable should not change this as far as I understand. An excellent discussion is here:

https://uptoneaudio.com/pages/j-swenson-tech-corner

Another effect that I didn't see yet mentioned is the cable impedance. USB cables have nominally 90 Ohms impedance. As far as I understand, deviations from the spec may affect the signal rise time of the digital signal, which incurrs in jitter - the data itself should be quite robust to it, therefore you still get no errors in hte data transmission. The worst case is when there is differential impedance between the data paths which may completely mess up the timing of the signal. How exactly does this degrade the signal in an asynchronous USB setup I don't exactly understand, however as usual the devil is in the details. This is discussed for example here.

Keep in mind that data rates involved in USB audio vary from 1.4Mbps (44.1kHz/16bits) up to around 50Mbps (768kHz/32bits).
USB2.0 cables are able to carry rates up to 480Mbps (HS High Speed).
At audio data rates no use to worry.
A proper cable doesn't add jitter.
A proper cable doesn't reduce jitter.

A cable impedance only matters when it is associated with loads at both ends.
In our case, when looking at impedance matching you can not dissociate source (DAP/PC) , cable and load (DAC) impedances. Dealing with USB, there are specifications for all. The USB cable spec.,for example, is given at 90 Ohms +/-10% .
Again even with imperfections, data integrity is not in danger.
Again a perfect impedance cable will improve nothing if DAP and DAC have improper impedances.

I have no experience with expensive USB cables. I am also not denying that some may perceive differences with their systems without brain doing tricks.
But for such cases, I would like to look at DAC's analog large spectrum (0Hz-1GHz)
output.
Maybe such USB cables are tuned for BBC world radio (joke)?

Edited: Quote issues corrected
 
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Sep 17, 2017 at 6:54 AM Post #207 of 1,606
At audio data rates no use to worry.
A proper cable doesn't add jitter.
A proper cable doesn't reduce jitter.
Edited: Quote issues corrected

Any digital transmission adds timing errors to the data, which perhaps doesn't matter for 99.9% of the applications other than audio, which relies on the data transmission synchronicity for timing information.
All cables subject to noise at the right frequency bands will add jitter to the signal.

A cable impedance only matters when it is associated with loads at both ends.
In our case, when looking at impedance matching you can not dissociate source (DAP/PC) , cable and load (DAC) impedances. Dealing with USB, there are specifications for all. The USB cable spec.,for example, is given at 90 Ohms +/-10% .
Again even with imperfections, data integrity is not in danger.
Again a perfect impedance cable will improve nothing if DAP and DAC have improper impedances.
Edited: Quote issues corrected

The receiver circuit is the load, and those are mostly everybody uses the same circuits. Once the impedance is outside the ideal value, the receiver will still operate, but may not be as accurate in identifying the timings of the incoming data. This error can be bypassed if you buffer the data at the receiver or use master clocks, however in most cases the data is received "as is" and passed on.

In other words, USB audio is never transmitted perfectly and in theory there is always some loss in timing information. If you're interested I may show you how it works.
 
Sep 17, 2017 at 7:46 AM Post #208 of 1,606
Any digital transmission adds timing errors to the data, which perhaps doesn't matter for 99.9% of the applications other than audio, which relies on the data transmission synchronicity for timing information.
All cables subject to noise at the right frequency bands will add jitter to the signal.



The receiver circuit is the load, and those are mostly everybody uses the same circuits. Once the impedance is outside the ideal value, the receiver will still operate, but may not be as accurate in identifying the timings of the incoming data. This error can be bypassed if you buffer the data at the receiver or use master clocks, however in most cases the data is received "as is" and passed on.

In other words, USB audio is never transmitted perfectly and in theory there is always some loss in timing information. If you're interested I may show you how it works.

I am always interested in learning new things. For sure I don't know in details how XMOS/ATMEL/etc MCUs are dealing with priorities when dealing with USB PCM decoding.
As far as I know ( feel free correcting me), there is no clock recovery from USB signal as opposed with SPDIF(embedded).
Dealing with asynchronous transfer mode for controlling USB chips buffer size, I am expecting those to correct most of input jitter issues without need at all of expensive USB cables.
Dealing with output residual jitter from those chips and how it is interacting with other noises inside DAC it is a different matter at least for me.

Since I have more experience in digital transmission and network synchronisation issues I tend to get annoyed/sceptical when reading at audio manufacturers papers pretending improving timing issues but if you notice well they never quantify the improvements or tell you if it really matters.
 
Sep 17, 2017 at 2:04 PM Post #209 of 1,606
Yes I adjusted my post. In some circumstances there can be times where noise can be transferred. The solution would not be buy an expensive usb cable but fix the source. The noise is not a sound signature though for Just for Cartma reference. It is not supposed to be there. Usually would see this problem with a usb powered dac vs a externally powered dac by a wallwart.
Ah So USB cables carry more than zeros and ones..!
 
Sep 17, 2017 at 2:59 PM Post #210 of 1,606
I am always interested in learning new things. For sure I don't know in details how XMOS/ATMEL/etc MCUs are dealing with priorities when dealing with USB PCM decoding.
As far as I know ( feel free correcting me), there is no clock recovery from USB signal as opposed with SPDIF(embedded).
Dealing with asynchronous transfer mode for controlling USB chips buffer size, I am expecting those to correct most of input jitter issues without need at all of expensive USB cables.
Dealing with output residual jitter from those chips and how it is interacting with other noises inside DAC it is a different matter at least for me.

Since I have more experience in digital transmission and network synchronisation issues I tend to get annoyed/sceptical when reading at audio manufacturers papers pretending improving timing issues but if you notice well they never quantify the improvements or tell you if it really matters.

It is good to exchange knowledge even when if we're not experts in a certain subject. What you said is almost correct, except... something that I also overlooked in the past. In reality, in an "asynchronous USB" normally it just means that it is the receiver clock which controls the data stream. There is no reclock whatsoever when the data is received, and the signal is passed as received to the DAC section. In order to get rid of this added jitter, you have to throw away the timing information from the signal and regenerate the stream from scratch. This is possible since USB has a constant sampling rate (the term asynchronous is just a catchy word), this can be done with a memory and a clock. That's basically what an Uptone Regen or other very few DACs do. I listened to the NAIM NDS and it is superb even playing from a junk source, however they use nothing less than 10 (!) clocks of different frequencies to regenerate the signal. Others like DCS have the option of using Master Clocks which are even more complicated (that's what recording studios use also to synchronise the times across all different recording equipment).

Have a look at this paper from Naim, especially Figure 3 with simulated jitter - they're simply showing that with 3ns of jitter a complete new note (almost an A) appears in the sample!

https://www.naimaudio.com/sites/def...files/dac-v1_asynchronous-usb_mwp_jan13_0.pdf
 
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