Why do USB cables make such a difference?

[Brooko]

Happy to clear that up for you! Every DAC, DAP, amp and digital audio disc player that I've ever gotten has been audibly transparent, They all sound exactly the same- perfect. I'm looking for one that *isn't* audibly transparent- or in other words, colored. If anyone has one that doesn't sound just like every other, and they've gone to the trouble to carefully make sure of that for themselves, let me know. I'd like to borrow it to do some tests. No one has been able to provide me with one yet.

Bigshot - there are plenty of examples of dac/amps sounding different. In the iPod world, the 5 series (Wolfson) was audibly on the warm side vs the Cirrus Logic being cooler / more neutral. I have an E17K which is the most clinically neutral device I own (ruler flat). I have an Audio-gd NFB12 which is tonally very warm.

I’m not sure if it’s Dac filters, or amps, or 2nd harmonic distortion - but the differences exist. For some the aim may be high transparency. For others it may be tonally pleasant. You know me - I’m a complete sceptic at heart. But I’d be first to advise that in blind volume matched tests - some dac/amp combos are audibly different. Are they all transparent - no. Some are coloured and intentionally so.

 

[bigshot]

My IPods are on the flat side. The Cambridge Audio DACMagic Plus is cold, and my favorite Sony TA amp/DAC is warm. But..........I'm not sending em out anywhere. I'm sure they would graph out the same as they sound. Only seen graphs on the IPods. Also due to the construction the Sony 1Z and 1A sound very different, mainly due to the amplification probably? 1000s of posts about the difference.

Have you done level matching, direct A/B switching and blind comparison? As you say, there are thousands of anecdotal reports of differences, but I'm looking for someone who has made an effort to make sure they are reporting accurately. I could chase every crackpot claim on Head-Fi, but that would be a waste of time. I've done controlled listening tests on my own equipment and it all sounds exactly the same- audibly transparent. I don't think coloration is nearly as common as some people think it is. In fact, I bet if you did a controlled test on your DACs, you'd find they sound the same too.

Bigshot - there are plenty of examples of dac/amps sounding different. In the iPod world, the 5 series (Wolfson) was audibly on the warm side vs the Cirrus Logic being cooler / more neutral. I have an E17K which is the most clinically neutral device I own (ruler flat). I have an Audio-gd NFB12 which is tonally very warm.

Are you comparing from the line out, not the headphone out? Because I know that there are differences in impedance, but that just depends on which headphone you are using. I'm looking for electronics that are colored. You're interesting me though. Have you done a controlled listening test with the NFB12 through line out? I have an older iPod with a Wolfson DAC and I think some of my other Apple stuff has Cirrus Logic and they are all completely transparent through line out. I haven't found a DAC chip that sounds different yet. (Sabre Reference and whatever is in a $40 Walmart DVD player are transparent too.) I think a lot of the reports about DACs sounding different are actually due to impedance differences.

I would really like to assemble a list of equipment that is deliberately colored. I just can't find any myself. It would be nice to measure them and define exactly what the coloration is too.

 

[Glmoneydawg]

Have you done level matching, direct A/B switching and blind comparison? As you say, there are thousands of anecdotal reports of differences, but I'm looking for someone who has made an effort to make sure they are reporting accurately. I could chase every crackpot claim on Head-Fi, but that would be a waste of time. I've done controlled listening tests on my own equipment and it all sounds exactly the same- audibly transparent. I don't think coloration is nearly as common as some people think it is. In fact, I bet if you did a controlled test on your DACs, you'd find they sound the same too.



Are you comparing from the line out, not the headphone out? Because I know that there are differences in impedance, but that just depends on which headphone you are using. I'm looking for electronics that are colored. You're interesting me though. Have you done a controlled listening test with the NFB12 through line out? I have an older iPod with a Wolfson DAC and I think some of my other Apple stuff has Cirrus Logic and they are all completely transparent through line out. I haven't found a DAC chip that sounds different yet. (Sabre Reference and whatever is in a $40 Walmart DVD player are transparent too.) I think a lot of the reports about DACs sounding different are actually due to impedance differences.

I would really like to assemble a list of equipment that is deliberately colored. I just can't find any myself. It would be nice to measure them and define exactly what the coloration is too.

I have to agree with you....i can't imagine how the digital domain can be responsible for adjectives like warmer,cooler ect(short of using equalization) bits is bits,i have in the distant past had digital products that sounded a little dissimilar but put it down the analog output(vacuum tube output sections,beach portable electronics ect...analog!

 

[Redcarmoose]

I have to agree with you....i can't imagine how the digital domain can be responsible for adjectives like warmer,cooler ect(short of using equalization) bits is bits,i have in the distant past had digital products that sounded a little dissimilar but put it down the analog output(vacuum tube output sections,beach portable electronics ect...analog!

The biggest differences I would guess are noticed due to the amp sections. Folks changing out operational amplifier chips, or even exotic amplifier topography like Sony Corporations DSEE HX has an unremovable effect on the sound.

Of course if you believe all amplifiers sound exactly the same, we have no argument to continue here.

 

[Glmoneydawg]

The biggest differences I would guess are noticed due to the amp sections. Folks changing out operational amplifier chips, or even exotic amplifier topography like Sony Corporations DSEE HX has an unremovable effect on the sound.

Of course if you believe all amplifiers sound exactly the same, we have no argument to continue here.

Without some form of argument this thread is dead....don't think i could bear it lol...having said that i have owned some pretty exotic amp/ speaker combos over the years...the power amp specs where pretty much identical ....didn't sound the same though(not hugely different )...was happy with all of them.

 

[bigshot]

As long as you use a modern solid state amplifier with the speakers or headphones that were are designed to be used with, it should be audibly transparent. I have only had four or five amps over the years, but they all are the same. Of course there are colored tube amps, but you know going in that the whole point of a tube amp is coloration.

 

[Glmoneydawg]

As long as you use a modern solid state amplifier with the speakers or headphones that were are designed to be used with, it should be audibly transparent. I have only had four or five amps over the years, but they all are the same. Of course there are colored tube amps, but you know going in that the whole point of a tube amp is coloration.

I'm betting all 5 of your amps where solid state....kinda takes you out of this argument my friend .....ever owned a modern tube amp?I know you have said your brother has owned the same tube amp for about 40 years so....

 

[Glmoneydawg]

Don't get me wrong...electrostatic speakers and low impedance speakers in general can roll off the extreme high end a little on a low power tube amp.....but at our age whats the big deal?

 

[jagwap]

Don't get me wrong...electrostatic speakers and low impedance speakers in general can roll off the extreme high end a little on a low power tube amp.....but at our age whats the big deal?

Also on almost all class D amps. That big output inductor is not ideal. It also adds a few dB or so on linductive tweeters. Most solid state amplifier channels are class d as of over 15 years ago. This is one reason Hypex classD has done so well. It doesn't suffer from this.

I love a good valve amp. The trouble is most of them are far from good.

The deal is phase shift.

 

[Glmoneydawg]

Also on almost all class D amps. That big output inductor is not ideal. It also adds a few dB or so on linductive tweeters. Most solid state amplifier channels are class d as of over 15 years ago. This is one reason Hypex classD has done so well. It doesn't suffer from this.

I love a good valve amp. The trouble is most of them are far from good.

The deal is phase shift.

Yep....but thankfully there are good ones

 

[GrussGott]

Bigshot - there are plenty of examples of dac/amps sounding different.

These 99 pages are all starting to make sense now ...

I mean, everytime I get in a fight with a pro MMA guy I always get knocked out, so the "logical" extrapolation is no difference between MMA fighters, thus all MMA fights should be draws, but they're not, so they're all rigged. (after all, all those guys have a financial stake in the industry, so it's all a big conspiracy)

Until you can prove to me with punch force measurements that MMA fighters are different, let's just assume they're all the same and all fights with a winner are rigged.

 

[bigshot]

I'm betting all 5 of your amps where solid state....kinda takes you out of this argument my friend .....ever owned a modern tube amp?

No, no interest in hard wired coloration. I can do that with DSPs if I want it and it will be completely adjustable.

 

[Arpiben]

I wasn't refering to RF, but another aspect outside of "conventional" measurements.

I won't name other brands as deficient, as that would be unprofessional.

I regret that you have not or can not share any DAC measurements showing the benefits.

 

[csglinux]

I might have a DAP to add to @bigshot's collection. Something that's puzzled me for a while is an effect I hear very strongly via the headphone-out of my QP1R when using the SE846. It's in the first 5 seconds of the Glass Hammer track "Towards Home We Fled" from the "Perilous" album. The bass player (Steve Babb) hits an F2 (~87.3 Hz) at the end of the second bar. He bends the string on the fretboard ever so slightly, but it's more or less 100% in tune via any of my other sources. That same note (F2) on my QP1R is notably flat. BTW, if I use a higher-impedance headphone, or I use a line-out from the QP1R->KSE1500 analog-in, the intonation is perfect again, so it seems like it's not the QP1R's DAC, but more likely the QP1R's current mode amp (along with, perhaps, the wild impedance swings of the SE846?) that does something with the timing that alters the pitch of that bass note. I've never found a plausible scientific explanation for what's going on.

Anybody got any thoughts?

 

[GrussGott]

Back on the topic of measurements, this interview with industry legend Dan D’Agostino is super interesting:

TLDR: measurements are good design guides but not definitive for sound quality



I suspect this same understanding (or lack thereof) of measurements is also happening with cables, DACs, and everything else audio