[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

I fear that you are right. It is blind testing, not testing the blind...

Blind testing:
 
"Can you see this?"
 
"Nope."
 
"Ok, you're blind. Next!"
 

 
se
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Nope you are still not getting this at all...
 
"Can you hear the difference?"
 
"Nope"
 
"Then you are deaf"
 
"Eh?"
 
"Next"
 
Silence.........
 

 

[TigzStudio]

For the people saying blind tests reveal that cables don't make a difference I have something to the contrary for you. 
 
I setup a blind test with three different headphone cables on the LCD-2's a few weeks ago.  None of the audiophile buddies have ever believed in cables making a difference. 

 
Here is how it was setup:
 
Each friend chose a song that they were EXTREMELY familiar with and that they were EMOTIONALLY attached to.  i.e., a song that evokes memories of past love or experience.  
 
They were only allowed to listen to that one song during the testing of all three cables.  They were given a piece of paper to write down for each cable A,B,C what they liked/disliked.  The cables were swapped as fast as possible once they were done listening to each song for about 15-20 minutes.  They were forced to listen to the song completely once first and then allowed to just jump to their favorite parts or play it however they wanted for the rest of the time with that cable.
 
Three headphone cables were used (for each cable the identifier labels, A,B,C were switched around).  
 
1.  Popular studio branded stranded OFC (4 conductor)
2.  Pure silver of a popular DIY brand (4 conductor litz braid)
3.  Solid Core up-occ (4 conductor litz braid)
 
They had absolutely know clue what cable was being used, or if even one was being used twice.  
 
When it came to my turn to do the blind test I was literally blind folded as I knew the colors of the cables.  Also they made sure that they kept the cable from touching any part of me (so I would not know the weight).  I also refrained from moving my head around while listening so I wouldn't know the tension of the cable.  
 
 
Every single person (including me) clearly chose the Solid Core UP-OCC (20 awg) as the winner, surpassing both of the others in all regards.  
 
This was truly a blind test with three people all preferring one cable by what they described as a fairly big margin.
 
 
Now I agree that if you know the cable trype your brain will make up the differences, but I feel blind these results are quite telling to me....as I experienced the difference as well.
 
Take this as you will, I am for one a believer in up-occ cable from Neotech.  
 
None of the audiophile friends believed that cables make a difference in a system, they also had no clue by the exterior of my cables which one was which.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

For the people saying blind tests reveal that cables don't make a difference I have something to the contrary for you. 
 
I setup a blind test with three different headphone cables on the LCD-2's a few weeks ago.  None of the audiophile buddies have ever believed in cables making a difference. 

 
Here is how it was setup:
 
Each friend chose a song that they were EXTREMELY familiar with and that they were EMOTIONALLY attached to.  i.e., a song that evokes memories of past love or experience.  
 
They were only allowed to listen to that one song during the testing of all three cables.  They were given a piece of paper to write down for each cable A,B,C what they liked/disliked.  The cables were swapped as fast as possible once they were done listening to each song for about 15-20 minutes.  They were forced to listen to the song completely once first and then allowed to just jump to their favorite parts or play it however they wanted for the rest of the time with that cable.
 
Three headphone cables were used (for each cable the identifier labels, A,B,C were switched around).  
 
1.  Popular studio branded stranded OFC (4 conductor)
2.  Pure silver of a popular DIY brand (4 conductor litz braid)
3.  Solid Core up-occ (4 conductor litz braid)
 
They had absolutely know clue what cable was being used, or if even one was being used twice.  
 
When it came to my turn to do the blind test I was literally blind folded as I knew the colors of the cables.  Also they made sure that they kept the cable from touching any part of me (so I would not know the weight).  I also refrained from moving my head around while listening so I wouldn't know the tension of the cable.  
 
 
Every single person (including me) clearly chose the Solid Core UP-OCC (20 awg) as the winner, surpassing both of the others in all regards.  
 
This was truly a blind test with three people all preferring one cable by what they described as a fairly big margin.
 
 
Now I agree that if you know the cable trype your brain will make up the differences, but I feel blind these results are quite telling to me....as I experienced the difference as well.
 
Take this as you will, I am for one a believer in up-occ cable from Neotech.  
 
None of the audiophile friends believed that cables make a difference in a system, they also had no clue by the exterior of my cables which one was which.

Now look at that.  What a circus.  This one makes me wish to give that V. Pryce laugh at the end of MJ's Thriller.  

 
Did you volume match the cables, per chance.  Maybe the UP-OCC cables allows for a higher volume and hence, better dynamics?  Were the listeners allowed to vary the volume as they pleased?  I do believe the latter should be done, rather than impose a fixed volume.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

For the people saying blind tests reveal that cables don't make a difference I have something to the contrary for you. 
 
I setup a blind test with three different headphone cables on the LCD-2's a few weeks ago.  None of the audiophile buddies have ever believed in cables making a difference. 

 
Here is how it was setup:
 
Each friend chose a song that they were EXTREMELY familiar with and that they were EMOTIONALLY attached to.  i.e., a song that evokes memories of past love or experience.  
 
They were only allowed to listen to that one song during the testing of all three cables.  They were given a piece of paper to write down for each cable A,B,C what they liked/disliked.  The cables were swapped as fast as possible once they were done listening to each song for about 15-20 minutes.  They were forced to listen to the song completely once first and then allowed to just jump to their favorite parts or play it however they wanted for the rest of the time with that cable.
 
Three headphone cables were used (for each cable the identifier labels, A,B,C were switched around).  
 
1.  Popular studio branded stranded OFC (4 conductor)
2.  Pure silver of a popular DIY brand (4 conductor litz braid)
3.  Solid Core up-occ (4 conductor litz braid)
 
They had absolutely know clue what cable was being used, or if even one was being used twice.  
 
When it came to my turn to do the blind test I was literally blind folded as I knew the colors of the cables.  Also they made sure that they kept the cable from touching any part of me (so I would not know the weight).  I also refrained from moving my head around while listening so I wouldn't know the tension of the cable.  
 
 
Every single person (including me) clearly chose the Solid Core UP-OCC (20 awg) as the winner, surpassing both of the others in all regards.  
 
This was truly a blind test with three people all preferring one cable by what they described as a fairly big margin.
 
 
Now I agree that if you know the cable trype your brain will make up the differences, but I feel blind these results are quite telling to me....as I experienced the difference as well.
 
Take this as you will, I am for one a believer in up-occ cable from Neotech.  
 
None of the audiophile friends believed that cables make a difference in a system, they also had no clue by the exterior of my cables which one was which.

It is always worthwhile when folks try blind tests, I have a few questions about your tests.
 
As I understand it you administered the tests apart from the last set in which you were the subject, correct ?
 
Did you have a preference for a cable before the tests or were all the cables new to you ?
 
How did you blind the subjects to the identity of the cables ?
 
How did you randomise the order of presentation of the cables ?
 
Did each person hear the cables in a different order ?
 
How many trials did each person have with each cable ?
 
How often were the cables swapped for each person ?
 
What were the subjects not under test doing whilst a subject was being tested ?
 
Did subjects discuss findings at all ?
 
The problem wirth single blind tests is that there are all sorts of cues that you can pass even without realizing it. Also if it was just one set of tests with each cable that is not statistically strong - you really need several separate trials with each cable, it is easy for 3 people to make the same guess once or even twice, but 5 or 10 times is much less likely, similarly there is order effect so you need to swap order often.
 
As mentioned by Aimlink is there any volume difference between the cables, that seems unlikely as such but even a small increase in volume is almost always perceived as better.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

For the people saying blind tests reveal that cables don't make a difference I have something to the contrary for you. 
 

None of the audiophile friends believed that cables make a difference in a system, they also had no clue by the exterior of my cables which one was which.

A blind test can only reveal that cables do make a difference.
 
A null result in a blind test is just that. A null result. It reveals nothing either way. All it reveals is that differences have yet to be determined.
 
se
 

 

[eucariote]

Quote:

A blind test can only reveal that cables do make a difference.
 
A null result in a blind test is just that. A null result. It reveals nothing either way. All it reveals is that differences have yet to be determined.
 
se
 

Not nothing- a null result shows that a hypothesis does not in fact lead to the experimental prediction that it makes.  For example, in my lab, we test hypothetical suppositions that some people have made that a certain dose of a certain drug reverses cognitive deficits on particular tests following brain damage.  With double blind tests of course.  This year, one drug had a null result and one had a significant result.  The interpretation is thus: the first drug does not in fact produce the effect with the proposed design as predicted by the hypothesis  Maybe the drug will work in different doses, tests, brain regions, etc.  But if different tests of those variations are also negative, the drug makers, scientific and medical community will safely conclude that the general hypothesis (drug x does y) is also wrong.  The same is true with any other testable hypothesis.

 

[Steve Eddy]

 
Quote:

Not nothing-

Read the rest of the sentence.
 
I said it reveals "nothing either way." "Either way" meaning neither an audible difference nor the lack of an audible difference.
 
se
 
 
 

 

[theearbone]

To Tigzstudio I say that single core conductors sounding better in audio is a general truth, I've DIYed power and signal cables and built multiple headphone amps and done modding.  In every single application the single core/seperated cores beat regular cables.  If you get the chance look at the internal wiring of your amp, it can often be upgraded with a penny's worth of single core hook up wire.
 
To the pro blind testers I say that no one conducts blind tests on a serious scientific scale, to do that to the standard of a medical experiment would cost at least tens of thousands US.  A few posts up show someone doing a little test and then immediately the anti-cable raise a bunch of objections, controlling for those and other objections is beyond hobbyists and audio show exhibits and magazine budgets.

 

[Steve Eddy]

 
Quote:

To the pro blind testers I say that no one conducts blind tests on a serious scientific scale, to do that to the standard of a medical experiment would cost at least tens of thousands US.

Say what? Medical equipment? Tens of thousands of dollars? What on earth are you talking about?
 
se
 

 

[eucariote]

Quote:

Read the rest of the sentence.
 
I said it reveals "nothing either way." "Either way" meaning neither an audible difference nor the lack of an audible difference.
 
se
 

 
In its conception and application, a null result has one meaning- lack of difference.  The scores/choices of the treatment condition are within the range of the random variation of the untreated condition, so there was no effect.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

In its conception and application, a null result has one meaning- lack of difference.  The scores/choices of the treatment condition are within the range of the random variation of the untreated condition, so there was no effect.

Not for the person or persons being tested. But that doesn't prove there are no audible differences.
 
se
 

 

[theearbone]

A few years ago it was annouced by the EU that dietary supplements would have to be tested to a clinical level, it was estimated that this would cost £250,000( over $300.000) per substance, for each substance that health food shops stock.  I don't see why testing the interaction of people and equipment would be cheaper.  You'd have to test the hearing and general health of the participants, and re-test to ensure that the effects were stable over time, similar for the equipment as that could marginally change.  And you need a proper lab, professional statistical work, pro engineers and probably a psych test professer to help design the thing.
 
In the real world we see that engineering results are not the end of designing an audio product, decent designers produce the original design to engineering principles and simulation models and then tweak by ear.  There are enough well known designers floating around forums, talk to them.  And if it were the case that measurables are everything then all 'engineer' listeners would be using cheap to build IC based amps like the ebay LME Jims_audio one( its actually not bad).

 

[Steve Eddy]

 
Quote:

A few years ago it was annouced by the EU that dietary supplements would have to be tested to a clinical level, it was estimated that this would cost £250,000( over $300.000) per substance, for each substance that health food shops stock.  I don't see why testing the interaction of people and equipment would be cheaper.  You'd have to test the hearing and general health of the participants, and re-test to ensure that the effects were stable over time, similar for the equipment as that could marginally change.  And you need a proper lab, professional statistical work, pro engineers and probably a psych test professer to help design the thing.
 
In the real world we see that engineering results are not the end of designing an audio product, decent designers produce the original design to engineering principles and simulation models and then tweak by ear.  There are enough well known designers floating around forums, talk to them.  And if it were the case that measurables are everything then all 'engineer' listeners would be using cheap to build IC based amps like the ebay LME Jims_audio one( its actually not bad).

 
We're not testing dietary supplements.
 
 
Quote:

I don't see why testing the interaction of people and equipment would be cheaper.

 
Because we're not testing dietary supplements.
 
 
Quote:

You'd have to test the hearing and general health of the participants, and re-test to ensure that the effects were stable over time, similar for the equipment as that could marginally change.  And you need a proper lab, professional statistical work, pro engineers and probably a psych test professer to help design the thing.

 
You wouldn't need all of that nor would what you would need cost tens of thousands of dollars.
 
 
Quote:

In the real world we see that engineering results are not the end of designing an audio product, decent designers produce the original design to engineering principles and simulation models and then tweak by ear.

 
So?
 
Engineers are still human beings and as such are just as susceptible to the limitations of subjective perception as any other human being.
 
 
Quote:

There are enough well known designers floating around forums, talk to them.

 
Talk to them about what exactly?
 
 
Quote:

And if it were the case that measurables are everything then all 'engineer' listeners would be using cheap to build IC based amps like the ebay LME Jims_audio one( its actually not bad).

 
Nice non sequitur you've got there.
 
se
 

 

[theearbone]

List all the things you'd have to control for, then figure out how to do the controls to a standard that could be published in a peer review journal.  Then figure the costs of hiring pros to do the work.