Why do the 'pro-cable' side refuse to accept the science and do blind tests?
post-6900432
Post #496 of 579

Steve Eddy

Member of the Trade: The Audio Guild
Aka: TempAccount555
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Messages
6,609
Reaction score
537
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Posts
6,609
Likes
537


Quote:
List all the things you'd have to control for, then figure out how to do the controls to a standard that could be published in a peer review journal.  Then figure the costs of hiring pros to do the work.

Just get yourself an ABX comparator.
 
se
 
 
     Share This Post       
post-6900443
Post #497 of 579

theearbone

New Head-Fier
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
24
Reaction score
11
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Posts
24
Likes
11
But you have to control for the human element, thats the really tricky bit and why double blind tests are used at all.
 
Is a comparator available that can do minute diffrences in headphones, that would be a very specialised bit of kit.
 
     Share This Post       
post-6900445
Post #498 of 579

Steve Eddy

Member of the Trade: The Audio Guild
Aka: TempAccount555
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Messages
6,609
Reaction score
537
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Posts
6,609
Likes
537
 
Oh, and for what it's worth, one of the most highly regarded DIY headphone amps was designed strictly "by the numbers." No "tuning by ear."
 
se
 
 
     Share This Post       
post-6900447
Post #499 of 579

Steve Eddy

Member of the Trade: The Audio Guild
Aka: TempAccount555
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Messages
6,609
Reaction score
537
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Posts
6,609
Likes
537


Quote:
But you have to control for the human element, thats the really tricky bit and why double blind tests are used at all.

That's what the ABX comparator does. Controls for the human element.
 
se
 
 
     Share This Post       
post-6900475
Post #500 of 579

theearbone

New Head-Fier
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
24
Reaction score
11
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Posts
24
Likes
11
It doesn't tell you what the humans are picking up on though, you'd need actual people being tested and that repeated, the most complex component can't be assumed away.  Eventually it might become clear if there is an effect or not and then you could pursue just what people are hearing/sensing, it might not even be audible.
 
One of things you find when modding is that changes do not always have the expected effect, but sometimes its exactly as inline with the 'audiophile myths'.
 
     Share This Post       
post-6900493
Post #501 of 579

Steve Eddy

Member of the Trade: The Audio Guild
Aka: TempAccount555
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Messages
6,609
Reaction score
537
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Posts
6,609
Likes
537

 
Quote:
It doesn't tell you what the humans are picking up on though, you'd need actual people being tested and that repeated, the most complex component can't be assumed away.  Eventually it might become clear if there is an effect or not and then you could pursue just what people are hearing/sensing, it might not even be audible.
 

So?
 
The goal is to first establish actual audible differences. Something which to date no one has done.
 
Quote:
Eventually it might become clear if there is an effect or not and then you could pursue just what people are hearing/sensing, it might not even be audible.
 
It might not even be audible?
 
If it's not audible, then there's no audible difference.
 
Are you for real or have any idea what you're talking about?
 
se
 
 
 
     Share This Post       
post-6900500
Post #502 of 579

revolink24

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Jan 12, 2008
Messages
2,881
Reaction score
40
Joined
Jan 12, 2008
Posts
2,881
Likes
40


Quote:
 

So?
 
The goal is to first establish actual audible differences. Something which to date no one has done.
 
 
It might not even be audible?
 
If it's not audible, then there's no audible difference.
 
Are you for real or have any idea what you're talking about?
 
se
 
 

Your posts are always so matter of fact. It makes me happy.
 
     Share This Post       
post-6900507
Post #503 of 579

eucariote

1000+ Head-Fier
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Messages
1,474
Reaction score
70
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Posts
1,474
Likes
70


Quote:
Not for the person or persons being tested. But that doesn't prove there are no audible differences.
 
se
 
 
Are you just retreating to Hume's general problem of induction?  (i.e. *nothing* can be ruled out because someday we might observe the exception).  Fortunately hypothesis testing as it is practiced by scientists doesn't have such a high bar to clear.  Alpha = .05 and replication are the criteria that most all practicing scientists use to say that some effect is or is not real.  You sometimes need to test the right population for some relevant effects (MS patients to test MS drugs).  I think that is why the OP is asking people who do hear these differences to take blind tests, because they are ideal subjects for showing that a perceived difference can be heard in both sighted and unsighted conditions.  After enough replication the effects can be safely generalized, using the same criteria that are routinely used to make life-and-death decisions using hypothesis testing, like drug approval.
 
     Share This Post       
post-6900510
Post #504 of 579

BIG POPPA

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
4,094
Reaction score
92
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Posts
4,094
Likes
92
     Share This Post       
post-6900526
Post #506 of 579

Steve Eddy

Member of the Trade: The Audio Guild
Aka: TempAccount555
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Messages
6,609
Reaction score
537
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Posts
6,609
Likes
537
     Share This Post       
post-6900527
Post #507 of 579

Steve Eddy

Member of the Trade: The Audio Guild
Aka: TempAccount555
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Messages
6,609
Reaction score
537
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Posts
6,609
Likes
537


Quote:
Don't tell him that!!!!!! His head is going to explode
LOL
 

"I don' know whuh happun'. Alla sudden, he haid, it jes' 'sploded!"

 
se
 
 
     Share This Post       
post-6900539
Post #508 of 579

theearbone

New Head-Fier
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
24
Reaction score
11
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Posts
24
Likes
11
Exactly, in order to do the measuring you need equipment that almost no one has, therefore its expensive.  Who has an ABX comparator sensitive enough to keep up with high end headphones?
 
Secondly you can feel sound that you can't hear, I don't know how people might process that.  I don't know what happens to people kept waiting to do a test and are anxious or annoyed or tired, or what happens to their ears if they use 'phones, stop, start, stop start etc or change the order of tracks or change the order to cable changes.
 
I know that there are people that can hear beyond the normal range, and that music pros can detect things regular listeners would not in a live performance.  I don't know what influence these people have priming others on what equipment sounds like.
 
Explain how to do these tests on a non-professional budget, and then do it. 
 
     Share This Post       
post-6900578
Post #509 of 579

Steve Eddy

Member of the Trade: The Audio Guild
Aka: TempAccount555
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Messages
6,609
Reaction score
537
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Posts
6,609
Likes
537

 
Quote:
Exactly, in order to do the measuring you need equipment that almost no one has, therefore its expensive. 

In order to do what measuring exactly?
 
Quote:
Who has an ABX comparator sensitive enough to keep up with high end headphones?
 
Sensitive enough in what respect exactly?
 
Quote:
Secondly you can feel sound that you can't hear, I don't know how people might process that.
 
Doesn't really matter how they process it. If it's perceivable it'll show up in the results.
 
 
Quote:
I don't know what happens to people kept waiting to do a test and are anxious or annoyed or tired, or what happens to their ears if they use 'phones, stop, start, stop start etc or change the order of tracks or change the order to cable changes.
 
Tests have been run in peoples' homes where they're able to do them with their own system and completely at their leisure.
 
Quote:
I know that there are people that can hear beyond the normal range, and that music pros can detect things regular listeners would not in a live performance.  I don't know what influence these people have priming others on what equipment sounds like.
 
It would seem people don't need to be told anything. They routinely purport perceiving differences. That's ultimately all you need.
 
Quote:
Explain how to do these tests on a non-professional budget, and then do it.
 
I already told you. And it's been done. Granted, not with headphone cables. But with interconnects, speaker cables, amps, preamps, etc.
 
se
 
 
     Share This Post       
post-6900613
Post #510 of 579

gilency

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
2,307
Reaction score
85
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Posts
2,307
Likes
85
I am afraid to say anything against cables. Last time I did, I was found guilty of being a fanatic for saying that  I could not believe anybody's claims without objective evidence. Burned at the stake.
 
     Share This Post       

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top