[Prog Rock Man]

I would confirm that difference by a blind test.

 

[kingtz]

Quote:

My civilised rebuttal to fzman is that blind testing and measuring cables (resistance etc) are not crude. Blind testing means only hearing is involved, whereas anti-cablers want other clues. Straight away you can see how that weakens their argument that they can hear a difference. Then cables measurements are straightforward with recognised values. Or do you mean testing cables for some other factor that has yet to be discovered, which would explain pro-cablers hearing a difference?

Don't you mean pro-cablers? But I agree with the rest.

 

[nigeljames]

Why don't the anti-cablers stop treating the pro-cablers as stone deaf idiots who are imagining what they hear.
Just because your ears/equipment are not good enough to hear differences please don't assume we are all so afflicted

 
I will say that every hi fi manufacturer knows that cable types make a difference.
Every decent amp/source designer, professional or amature, also knows that the the wire used in their designs make a difference so why not IC's and other cables.
I have heard differences with headphone cables,normally small differences but definately there.
I have heard more significant differences with IC's.
Never a/b'd power cables so can't comment on them.
 
Who needs scientific proof. Come on now get a grip. Use your ears. If we can hear a difference then THERE IS A DIFFERENCE !

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

Don't you mean pro-cablers? But I agree with the rest.

Yes, sorry, previous post edited to make more sense.

 

[Dynobot]

Case #1 - Stereophile Blind testing = Listening with your ears and judging from sound alone if something has good sonic characteristics
 
 
Case #2 - Science/Engineers Blind testing = Look and measurements, charts, graphs, data then dismiss products based on visual perceptions of what should sound good. [Audiophiles] add to this by factoring in appearance, price, ability to enhance bragging rights.
 
Case #1, John Doe builds a system based purely on sound and ignores cost, popularity, looks, and measurements...listens to music and enjoys it.
 
Case #2, William Doe builds a system based on popularity of components [everyone wants it], price[expensive so exclusivity is envolved], looks[shinny, looks expensive], measurements, all paper data.....listens and is never satisfied because a measurement is disputed as being wrong or a new more pricey item is introduced and his ability to brag has diminished.
 
Case #1 people hear with their ears and trust them
 
Cast #2 people hear with their eyes [reading measurements] and do not trust their ears, they need proof

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

Why don't the anti-cablers stop treating the pro-cablers as stone deaf idiots who are imagining what they hear.
Just because your ears/equipment are not good enough to hear differences please don't assume we are all so afflicted

 
I will say that every hi fi manufacturer knows that cable types make a difference.
Every decent amp/source designer, professional or amature, also knows that the the wire used in their designs make a difference so why not IC's and other cables.
I have heard differences with headphone cables,normally small differences but definately there.
I have heard more significant differences with IC's.
Never a/b'd power cables so can't comment on them.
 
Who needs scientific proof. Come on now get a grip. Use your ears. If we can hear a difference then THERE IS A DIFFERENCE !

We are not treating people as idiots, we are pointing out that evidence strongly suggests properties attributed to cables cannot be found when cables are tested.
 
I have no doubt that differences can be heard between cables, but it is not an affliction or inability to hear, nor is it something actually in the cable.
 
I disagree that every hifi manufacturer agrees there is a difference. Or else why do headphones come with 'stock' cables that can allegedly be improved? If that really was the case and I made headphones you could be sure I would also make a range of cables as well. That is easy since I would already be making or buying in cables anyway. The same applies to cables/wire used in amps, CDPs, headphones themselves.
 
Get a grip applies to cables makers and the spurious claims. Who needs scientific proof? I do, you don't.
 
Yes if you can hear a difference there is a difference. So long as you do not attribute that difference to the cable, fine.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

We are not treating people as idiots, we are pointing out that evidence strongly suggests properties attributed to cables cannot be found when cables are tested.
 
I have no doubt that differences can be heard between cables, but it is not an affliction or inability to hear, nor is it something actually in the cable.
 
I disagree that every hifi manufacturer agrees there is a difference. Or else why do headphones come with 'stock' cables that can allegedly be improved? If that really was the case and I made headphones you could be sure I would also make a range of cables as well. That is easy since I would already be making or buying in cables anyway. The same applies to cables/wire used in amps, CDPs, headphones themselves.
 
Get a grip applies to cables makers and the spurious claims. Who needs scientific proof? I do, you don't.
 
Yes if you can hear a difference there is a difference. So long as you do not attribute that difference to the cable, fine.

If you revise the thread you will see that there is a lot of persistence on the part of anti-cablers with all the attendant melodrama.  What is it that motivates this persistence?
 
So you say "we are pointing out that evidence strongly suggests properties attributed to cables cannot be found when cables are tested."  Ok.  So you and others have done so and given your reasons why.  Many of the pro-cablers aren't prepared to believe you and they state why.  So, now what??  If it's just a matter of sharing views, isn't it time to go home?
 
If your intentions were as simple as you say then you'd have gone about your business.  OTOH, this hasn't happened and things are getting heated.  Why?  What I see as the source of this is intolerance.  Intolerance as evidenced by persistence.  You feel strongly motivated to change pro-cablers minds.  Why?  A lack of acceptance of the pro-cabler's position.  Why?  An idiotic one perhaps?  One that requires a saviour for mental healing/enlightement?  Do you see why pro-cablers would feel like they're being treated like idiots?
 
No one likes being taken for a fool and the typical reaction would be in the defensive.  Of course, they could choose to ignore you after you made your point and switched to persistence, but out of respect for your position and others here, they continue to respond.  What a circus.... and in all of this, you have pro-cablers genuinely just going about using their cables as everyone goes about using their favourite gear for whatever reasons that may be objective or entirely within their minds.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

My persistence is down to wanting to get to a better answer than we have at the moment. I know not to ask yourself, Beeman and various others for evidence, but I will continue ask where appropriate, particularly those new to the debate. The reason for that is even though I have spent hundreds of hours looking through the internet for evidence, others still find stuff I have not. The myths thread has continued to grow with an update just a few days ago. So my business is not finished.
 
My motivation is as I said to get a better answer and to find more evidence. I am prepared (as are many anti-cablers) to be proved wrong. This part of the forum is all about questioning, I get it and I dish it out. If pro-cablers feel like idiots and some do, I am sorry, but for me the evidence as it stands at the moment strongly suggests they are wrong.
 
I am not gong away, no matter how persistent here and elsewhere your criticism is of me aimlink

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

My persistence is down to wanting to get to a better answer than we have at the moment. I know not to ask yourself, Beeman and various others for evidence, but I will continue ask where appropriate, particularly those new to the debate. The reason for that is even though I have spent hundreds of hours looking through the internet for evidence, others still find stuff I have not. The myths thread has continued to grow with an update just a few days ago. So my business is not finished.
 
My motivation is as I said to get a better answer and to find more evidence. I am prepared (as are many anti-cablers) to be proved wrong. This part of the forum is all about questioning, I get it and I dish it out. If pro-cablers feel like idiots and some do, I am sorry, but for me the evidence as it stands at the moment strongly suggests they are wrong.
 
I am not gong away, no matter how persistent here and elsewhere your criticism is of me aimlink

Hahaha.  You miswrote that right?  I know of procablers feeling like they're being called idiots.  I don't know of any feeling like idiots.  Anyway....
I didn't realize that I was being persistent and a thorn in your side, so to speak.  So I'll back out... no problem at all. 
 
Unsubscribed from here.

 

[xnor]

Quote:

My motivation is as I said to get a better answer and to find more evidence. I am prepared (as are many anti-cablers) to be proved wrong. This part of the forum is all about questioning, I get it and I dish it out. If pro-cablers feel like idiots and some do, I am sorry, but for me the evidence as it stands at the moment strongly suggests they are wrong.
 
I am not gong away, no matter how persistent here and elsewhere your criticism is of me aimlink

 I'm prepared as well.
 
@nigeljames: "Use your ears."
Don't worry, we do. 

 

[Cymbal Monkey]

I feel like chiming in again. If someone were to prove to me that cables do make a difference, I wouldn't jump on the cable band wagon because I can't hear it. I would, however, be in full support of people getting high quality cables. This is how I work: I support the side that the data points to, I have no emotional connection to either side being right or wrong, because that's silly and impassioned.

 

[rusitnpiece]

Let me also jump in again. I would love to be able to buy an "upgrade" cable that would improve the sound of my headphone, who wouldn't? The problem for us non believers is NOT that we can't afford the cables. I can't stand the ridiculous argument on this thread that goes something like this.... "you obviously don't have good enough equipment to be able to hear the difference" for goodness sake, you have to do better than that!
 
Please by all means someone send me a cable for my Sennheiser HD600's so that I can see this "Night and Day" difference. I don't mind being proved wrong.   

 

[kingtz]

 
 
Quote:

Why don't the anti-cablers stop treating the pro-cablers as stone deaf idiots who are imagining what they hear.
Just because your ears/equipment are not good enough to hear differences please don't assume we are all so afflicted

 
I will say that every hi fi manufacturer knows that cable types make a difference.
Every decent amp/source designer, professional or amature, also knows that the the wire used in their designs make a difference so why not IC's and other cables.
I have heard differences with headphone cables,normally small differences but definately there.
I have heard more significant differences with IC's.
Never a/b'd power cables so can't comment on them.
 
Who needs scientific proof. Come on now get a grip. Use your ears. If we can hear a difference then THERE IS A DIFFERENCE !

Obviously you skipped the discussions about biased expectations, psychoacoustics, etc. Our sound perception, along with most other types of perception, is not infallible and prone to influence by the aforementioned factors. So yeah, "using your ears" proves nothing. And please don't make broad, blanket statements such as "every such and such maker knows this and this..." as you don't know every manufacturer out there and there will surely be at least a few who will disagree with you.

 

[Uncle Erik]

nigeljames, show me the difference with your eyes closed and I'll take you seriously.

I'll also accept test results from standard electrical labratory equipment. The tests must be repeatable by others.

Good luck with that. Neither has been done in 30 years of controversy. I've seen more solid proof for UFOs, ghosts, Bigfoot, a faked moon landing, leprechauns, pixies, mind control satellites, faith healers, chupacabras, and the possibility that Elvis is still alive.

As far as anyone can demonstrate, cables "differences" exist in the same way that unicorns, voodoo magic and palm readers do.

 

[BIG POPPA]

UE you are getting a bit much again