[SP Wild]

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Complaining isn't going to change the laws of physics.

Has it changed anything for yourself for that matter.

 

[xnor]

I was still editing my post, here's the update:
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Complaining isn't going to change the laws of physics.
 
Does trying to reduce the odds of being ripped off necessarily reduce enjoyment in this hobby? Don't think so.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

IMO posts that attack anti-cablers for 'not enjoying' or 'not appreciating' the music are just accusations to avoid answering the real issues.

 

[TheAttorney]

 
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IMO posts that attack anti-cablers for 'not enjoying' or 'not appreciating' the music are just accusations to avoid answering the real issues.

 
IMO it's wrong to attack anti-cablers for not enjoying music, or being cloth eared, or having poor equipment, or being jealous of someone else's high end system.
 
But I don't think that's what people do in general (there's always an exception that proves the rule). I don't think I've ever done that and I haven't seen aimlink do that, or most of the pro-cablers who have posted recently in this thread.
 
BTW, this thread seems to have a mind of it's own - I keep leaving it and it's still going strong every time I return!
 
BTW, xnor, I can't make you out. You seem to be itching for a fight when others, from both sides, are at least trying to stay constructive. I don't see the point.
 

 

[fzman]

do you mean the human ear can't do it, because trumpets don't use reeds?
 
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First, the human ear can do no such thing. It's not the ear that hears but rather our brains that hear. All the ears do is provide input.
 
Second, since all we get out of our audio systems is ultimately nothing more than changes in voltage and current over time, and we can measure that to levels well below the thresholds of what humans can hear, then any change which would alter the sound stage or the texture of a muted trumpet's reed variation can also be measured.
 
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[fzman]

sorry it's taken so long to respond.  My point was that you are making a positive assertion about perceptual biases, which I think can be argued against.  If by perceptual biases you mean something like sonic preferences, then they can alter people's choices- a person who likes brighter sound preferring a brighter speaker.  However, if we are debating over which speaker is brighter, I am less sure how perceptual biases can enter into the picture.
 
Hope that helps.....
 
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I think you misunderstood.  None of what I wrote has anything to do with whether or not me, you or anyone is correct about the influence of cables and whether or not they have an audible influence on sound.
 
I started with 'even if cables were found to make a difference'.  I'm in effect putting that issue aside and putting forward that perceptual biases affect all our choices and subjective appreciation of whatever gear we evaluate.  This is why I don't trust reviews and do my own testing if I'm interested in a particular piece of gear.  I too often disagree with a LOT of the testimonies I read.  We each have our own experiences, tainted by our psychoacoustics and tastes.  The study that I sited is just an example.  We have three speaker systems, all different and all that sound different to all present.  However, there remained marked differences in relative appreciation of each system when they were tested sited or when they were tested while blinded.

 

[Yoga Flame]

 
How about if we put talking about cables first, and try to agree on an objective test? To make it less prone to bias from either side, let's maybe come up with a test that is unrelated to audio. For example, one that determines whether or not a type of medicine is effective. Let's say I have discovered a new combination of herbs that has cured me of migraines. Can we come up with a reliable way of verifying that my herbs actually do what I claim they do?
 
Sure, we can just use the test methods already in place by the FDA or whatever. Maybe let's start from there. But the point is to try and poke holes in the testing method to remove bias. If DBT is flawed, let's find a better way. Hopefully we can come to a consensus on a bias free test, and only after that apply the same methodology in the context of cables. And who knows, maybe we'll even revolutionize the drug industry.

 

[Cymbal Monkey]

I have a suggestion... if you took a super light driver, made of mesh as to decrease its air resistance, and hooked up the different cables to it, and had a laser measure the driver's displacement at the highest possible bitrate, we could see if the driver behaves any differently between cables. 

 

[aimlink]

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BTW, xnor, I can't make you out. You seem to be itching for a fight when others, from both sides, are at least trying to stay constructive. I don't see the point.
 

x2

 
Quote:

sorry it's taken so long to respond.  My point was that you are making a positive assertion about perceptual biases, which I think can be argued against.  If by perceptual biases you mean something like sonic preferences, then they can alter people's choices- a person who likes brighter sound preferring a brighter speaker.  However, if we are debating over which speaker is brighter, I am less sure how perceptual biases can enter into the picture.
 
Hope that helps.....
 

It actually does.  I better understand where you're coming from.
 
Take a typical testimony of the difference a headphone cable makes.  One may say that the bass is deeper with more extension and/or that the mids are smoother with highs that are better extended and less harsh.  Sound stage differences may also be reported in that the soundstage is widened.  The funny thing about it is that this sort of description will come when comparing headphones, two amps or two DACs.  When reporting your experiences, are you sure there isn't a bias that's at work as the pro-cablers are being accused of?  We do have evidence that demonstrates these biases to be real as I sited when those 3 speaker systems were compared sited vs blinded.
 
It's not as cut and dry as which speaker is brighter.  We're debating which is more 'musical'.  Which one has more PRaT.  More soundstage.  More imaging.  All of these attributes are prone not only to heavy subjectivity, but also, perceptual biases.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Yes, I like the suggestions of using non-audio gear to test cables. I've suggested before using various cables to power things like lightbulbs and electric motors. If the cables make a difference, sensitive measuring tools should find a difference in light output, heat emitted, efficiency, and any number of other measures.

This is something that really makes me question cables. Audio aside, governments, corporations and hobbyists test and try all sorts of things. If cables are so critical, why hasn't this been noticed by Bell Labs, CalTech students or some guy developing lighting systems in his garage? Surely, it's been tried thousands of times. Especially in the last 30 years as the cable controversy has turned up repeatedly. You'd think that some researcher, somewhere, might have seen the argument and tried different materials in hopes of picking up a patent and then making millions from industrial applications. Cables aren't just for audio, there'd be thousands of commercial applications if something was discovered.

Why hasn't this happened?

 

[mikeaj]

Well, there are specialty cables used in many applications, e.g. fibreoptics, electric power distribution, oscilloscope leads, etc., and different versions may be spec'd and priced accordingly.  Granted, the difference is mostly in gauge, layout, and shielding, and they deal with issues, frequencies, and lengths that are non-factors in home audio.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Right, mikeaj. There are differences when you look at long lengths for power distribution and way up in the gigahertz range. But all of this research doesn't turn up differences in the audio range. Specialty cable for something like RF transmissions behaves the same as lamp cord when you run audio frequencies through it.

That leads me to wonder why test gear is effective to engineer cables for particular industrial applications, yet becomes "inadequate" for measurement of audio frequencies. My suspicion is that it has more to do with marketing and sales than anything else.

 

[maverickronin]

It never ends...
 
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The Super SATA cables I recently tested proved to be real shockers. Every logical thought was telling me that the wires that transmit the raw digital data between a hard disk and the motherboard in a NAS simply could not influence the sound that emerged from the player – after the music has already subsequently passed through metres of CAT5.

But they do.

I listened to the cables in my NAS feeding my Naim HDX/DAC/XPS and clearly identified easily perceptible improvements through my highly revealing active Naim DBL system. Quite what it is that wrought these improvements I do not know. My only guess is that the Super SATAs reject interference significantly better than the standard cables and in so doing lower the noise floor revealing greater low-level musical detail and presentational improvements in the soundstage and the ‘air’ around instruments.

The most marked and worthwhile difference, I felt, was in the increased naturalness in both the sound of instruments and voices, which seemed more organic, human and less ‘electronic’, and in the music’s rhythmical progression, which was also more natural and had the realistic ebb and flow that musicians exhibit when playing live. In short, recordings sounded more like musical performances then recordings.

As you can see the cables do not look anything special even though they are far more robust than the standard issue flat cables, and they are are irradiated, I am told, to vapourise any moisture that has found its way into the molecular structure of the conductors.

The photo here shows the original, Generation 1 cable but there is now a more advanced, wider bandwidth Generation 2 version that is soon going to be available from the same American manufacturer. They will, of course, be more expensive than ‘ordinary’ SATA cables – the red and grey insulated flat cables that come free with hard disks or sell for around £2.99. But their superior performance easily justifies the extra expense.

When I have a definite price on the new cables and the URL from which they will be able to be purchased, I will post the information here. I cannot wait: I only have one of the generation 1 cables and wanted a dozen more for other hard disks and SATA peripherals. Now there is a supposedly ‘better’ version I cannot wait to evaluate it and if it is, as I am told, substantially superior, get my order in for a dozen of those.

    I have disabled Comments on this post so that respectable visitors do not have to read the remarks made by a small number of extremely ignorant, rude, malicious and disingenuous  individuals who cannot tolerate people expressing opinions that do not concur with their own.

 

[Steve Eddy]

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I have disabled Comments on this post so that respectable visitors do not have to read the remarks made by a small number of extremely ignorant, rude, malicious and disingenuous  individuals who cannot tolerate people expressing opinions that do not concur with their own.
 

The irony is... deafening.
 
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[Cymbal Monkey]

Someone doesn't understand the difference between opinion and fact.