[Cymbal Monkey]

Unless you measure it by price!

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

Unless you measure it by price!

That wouldn't really be blinded though...

 

[eucariote]

Quote:

Sound quality is subjective and cannot be measured. Or defined, for that matter. Your perception of quality is different from mine. 'Cables make a difference in sound quality.' is not a falsifiable nor testable hypothesis.

 
 
Hypothesis:
 
"I can reliably pick out the better cable in a blind test"
 
Test
 
After a series of DBTs, 
Null hypothesis:
 
H0:  # correct discriminations = # incorrect discriminations
 
Alternate hypothesis:
 
H1: # of correct discriminations > # incorrect discriminations
 
Calculation
 
Using a binomial distribution, describing the distribution of random outcomes of two + alternatives (H0), analyze the P of test results as follows:
 
The probability of getting exactly k successes in n trials with p chance of success and q chance of failure is:

 
Result
 
P > 0.05 
 
conclusion: listener cannot correctly choose the better cable - H0 is true
 
p < 0.05 
 
conclusion: listener can pick out the correct  cable - H1 is true
 
Interpretation
 
HO: The cables do not make a difference in sound quality to the the tester
H1: The cables make a difference in sound quality to the tester

 

[Cymbal Monkey]

Sound is subjective in as much as I like the sound of Thom Yorke's voice while others may not, I like a huge mid range while others may not, but there is nothing subjective about whether or not a cable makes a difference. That can be directly measured.

 

[sokolov91]

 
Quote:

Arguing about whether cables make a difference is like arguing about whether god exists.  Neither side will ever win. 

The only side that wins is the one that realizes they are 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 (repeating, of course) right that god does not exist, but that there is an infinitesimal chance that he does.
 
That is agnosticism vs atheism. You cannot know the unknowable. What you can do, is not be an ignoramus, and believe what is more likely to be the truth. That way you are not ignorant in denying the other side, but you are also moving away from black magic, unicorns, santa, jesus, god, Loch Ness monster, Mohammad etc, etc as things that actually exist.
 
People will believe and perceive just about anything. That's why people mistake expensive amps for bad ones, when they are biased, and why the Church Scientology exists. People are stupid, people think they are perfect, and people are gullible. If you are conditioned to believe something, you will, regardless of the truth. That is why where you are born effects your beliefs. If you are Christian here in NA, you would be Jewish in Israel, or Muslim in Dubai... it is not genuine faith, it is a learned thing. So if you are conditioned to believe cables work, you will, and depending on how uncomfortable you are in changing a point of view (whether you are aware of it or not) will determine your final position.
 
The only pro-cable argument I respect (which is also a self defeating one), is that science may claim it makes no difference, but it does to them. That is honesty, and on some level, a realization of the limits of their perception of raw data, and when psychology comes into play.
 
If spending thousands or hundreds, or hundreds of thousands on cables is what it takes for you to enjoy music, then by all means do it (that's what counts right?), but please be fully aware it is because you are a fool to your own mind. An opinion is not a fact, nor is it science.
 
So, when people claim cables do not work, they are the only ones who are using the accepted truth (thus far for the zealots). Ones that argue you cannot make that assumption as people DO hear a differences is like a schizophrenic telling you that the voices in their head are in fact real, and the fact you cannot hear them has no weight. They are real in the sense they exist in their own mind. They are false in the sense they do not exist in the communal reality.
 
So, there is no real argument to be made, just people bitter for different reasons over people not believing as they do (which is why religion is such a big problem on this planet). So, because they are a detriment to science, and education, things of this nature should eventually be expelled from our earth.
 
Another thing is that most people truly are shut in their own minds, more so than they can ever imagine. 
 
Only people who have experience "Ego Death" or a similar experience have truly witnessed what eclipses the human mind and ones conscious though, try as we might, and how deeply we are buried within the confines of our mind. So most are not truly open minded, despite their claims, as you can't escape yourself.
 
Everything you know and perceive is just a chemical and electrical interaction in your brain at the end of the day.
 
Ego Death, look it up its food for though

 

[KnightK]

Quote:

 

The only side that wins is the one that realizes they are 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 (repeating, of course) right that god does not exist, but that there is an infinitesimal chance that he does.
 
That is agnosticism vs atheism. You cannot know the unknowable. What you can do, is not be an ignoramus, and believe what is more likely to be the truth. That way you are not ignorant in denying the other side, but you are also moving away from black magic, unicorns, santa, jesus, god, Loch Ness monster, Mohammad etc, etc as things that actually exist.
 
The only pro-cable argument I respect (which is also a self defeating one), is that science may claim it makes no difference, but it does to them. That is honesty, and on some level, a realization of the limits of their perception of raw data, and when psychology comes into play.
 
If spending thousands or hundreds, or hundreds of thousands on cables is what it takes for you to enjoy music, then by all means do it (that's what counts right?), but please be fully aware it is because you are a fool to your own mind. An opinion is not a fact, nor is it science.
 
So, when people claim cables do not work, they are the only ones who are using the accepted truth (thus far for the zealots). Ones that argue you cannot make that assumption as people DO hear a differences is like a schizophrenic telling you that the voices in their head are in fact real, and the fact you cannot hear them has no weight. They are real in the sense they exist in their own mind. They are false in the sense they do not exist in the communal reality.
 
So, there is no real argument to be made, just people bitter for different reasons over people not believing as they do (which is why religion is such a big problem on this planet). So, because they are a detriment to science, and education, things of this nature should eventually be expelled from our earth.
 
Another thing is that most people truly are shut in their own minds, more so than they can ever imagine. 
 
Only people who have experience "Ego Death" or a similar experience have truly witnessed what eclipses the human mind and one's conscious though, try as we might, and how deeply we are buried within the confines of our mind. So most are not truly open minded, despite their claims, as you can't escape yourself.
 
Everything you know and perceive is just a chemical and electrical interaction in your brain at the end of the day.
 
Ego Death, look it up its food for though

I agree with a lot of your points here and I second most of your arguments. I will say that, like most other things on the market, cables exist because there's a demand for them. If people choose to buy them, that is their choice. For what it's worth, I would rather have impressionable youngsters spend money on cables to make them happy than deadly high-inducing drugs

. I chose not to take sides on pro/anti cable because I haven't tried non-stock cables. (No need for me as the most noticeable improvements lie elsewhere.) But for others who have made up their mind either way, I will still respect them the same ... as long as they don't forcibly impose their views on others.Live and let live, I say...

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Arguing about whether cables make a difference is like arguing about whether god exists.  Neither side will ever win. 

Which god?  There are quite a few of them.
 
Though I'm pretty sure nikongod exists. 

 

[sokolov91]

Quote:

I agree with a lot of your points here and I second most of your arguments. I will say that, like most other things on the market, cables exist because there's a demand for them. If people choose to buy them, that is their choice. For what it's worth, I would rather have impressionable youngsters spend money on cables to make them happy than deadly high-inducing drugs

. I chose not to take sides on pro/anti cable because I haven't tried non-stock cables. (No need for me as the most noticeable improvements lie elsewhere.) But for others who have made up their mind either way, I will still respect them the same ... as long as they don't forcibly impose their views on others.Live and let live, I say...

Deadly? You should check mortality rates, my friend. That is on the same school of thought and this thread. People still believe most of that stuff is deadly (some is, most not), when if you check the mortality rates, and what is actually more likely to injure you, the laws don't add up with the science and statistics.
 
Were it scientists who were making the laws, boxing would give you life in jail, and alcohol would be illegal. Again, you are conditioned to believe that something is in and of itself bad, and so it is taboo. In other cultures alcohol is taboo, it's just where you are and what people believe. Alcohol is horrible for just about every part of your body.
 
That is the problem though, people have big problems when people don't believe what they don't. People don't sit still, they have an urge to be right and express themselves, which is why we are discussing something that already has a determined answer in this forum... isn't it
 

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

Though I'm pretty sure nikongod exists. 

Luz...
 
IMO the Silver Ghost gives him a better claim to divinity than most.

 

[Danneq]

@nycbone
 
Your post here strikes me, a non-scientist but also a non-believer in the "magic" of cables, as the best and most levelheaded one in all of these discussions about cables.

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

Sort of...
 
Science is the process of evaluating falsifiable and testable hypotheses. It doesn't matter how the original hypothesis if generated. Elevation of a hypothesis to a theory or a law does not make it more valid (the graphic shows this to some degree, though not to my satisfaction). It is still a hypothesis.
 
There is no proof or verification in science. One can only use methods accepted by the scientific community at the time to falsify or obtain evidence in support  of the hypothesis. There is no 'pass.' There is only fail.
 
A good scientist always assumes that she/he is wrong. The better scientist spends their career attempting to falsify their own hypotheses. That's what I do (professionally). That's how science proceeds.
 
Sir Karl Popper had a lot to say on this subject. The Logic of Scientific Discovery is worth reading, particularly the discussion of hypothesis testing.
 
'Cables make a difference in sound quality.' is NOT a falsifiable hypothesis and cannot be tested. Period. Neither side can win this argument.
 
'I am using science to choose my cables.' is a ridiculous statement. Your tried different cables and you liked one better. End of story. No science involved.
 
'The frequency response produced by headphones using this cable is different from the frequency response produced by headphones using that cable.' is a falsifiable, testable hypothesis. If you have the equipment needed to test this hypothesis, have at it.
 
If the previous hypothesis is supported, then
'This individual can detect differences in frequency response when these cables are used.' is a falsifiable, testable hypothesis.
 
 
 
 

 

 
Quote:

 

QFT.  Maybe the question of this thread should equally be "Why do the anti-cable side only use science when it suits them to do so and mis-represent it when they do?"  It's rather like that other thread about why DBT is banned in the other forums.  The answer to it could equally be because almost nobody knows what they are talking about (ie: just about everyone who argues about cables is full of it).  The few people who do have a clue aren't interested in discussing seriously, just shouting everyone else down.  But this has always been the case throughout time.  Over 1000 years ago, someone wrote: "A fool has no delight in understanding, but in expressing his own heart."  (Proverbs 18:2) People never learn, nor, it seems, do they want to.
 
For the record, I'm not pro- or anti- anything, just in favour of no BS.

Best stuff I have read in the Science forums in awhile.     

 

[KnightK]

Quote:

Were it scientists who were making the laws, boxing would give you life in jail, and alcohol would be illegal. Again, you are conditioned to believe that something is in and of itself bad, and so it is taboo. In other cultures alcohol is taboo, it's just where you are and what people believe. Alcohol is horrible for just about every part of your body.  
That is the problem though, people have big problems when people don't believe what they don't. People don't sit still, they have an urge to be right and express themselves, which is why we are discussing something that already has a determined answer in this forum... isn't it
 

That's why I don't drink; there's plenty of other alternatives. Anyway, this discussion actually reminds me of the book Freakonomics (and its sequel Superfreakonomics). There's a lot of against-the-grain, but elegantly supported, reasoning in that book as well. Don't know if you've read it or not, but I'd definitely recommend it if you haven't.
 

 

[eucariote]

Quote:

 
That is the problem though, people have big problems when people don't believe what they don't. People don't sit still, they have an urge to be right and express themselves, which is why we are discussing something that already has a determined answer in this forum... isn't it
 

 
Actually the name of the thread is 'why doesn't the pro cable side .. do blind tests' - which is not about any negative conclusion but the methodology used to to do a test without confounds.  The very same methodology that is used in most empirical tests that conclude and publish 'x' does 'y'.  And positive results abound in science using these techniques, in fact it is mostly made of them.  
 
Wondering why people resist methodological controls is fairly innocent, like wondering why people resist and denounce straight rulers when making statements about the size of their houses- good measurements can't be made without them.  Of course not everyone should bother doing dbts, and head-fi is wonderful without them.  But the puzzle driving the op is why this is one of the last places on earth where the usefulness of a universal, relevant and dead simple method used by all professional scientists (er, carpenters) is still in doubt.

 

[maverickronin]

I would assume they reject dbt because they reject the concept of objective measurement because they believe subjective experience is superior to objective evidence.  They reject the idea that their experience can be quantified and reduced to the known laws of physics.  They reject that the emotion they experience is the result of the interaction atoms and molecules inside their brains.  I think some of them really do believe that not knowing what cable they are listening to in a test will somehow change its properties, possibly because they can not distinguish between reality and their perception of reality.
 
This seems to invoke a whole slew of discredited philosophies which are mostly either proven false or unfalsifiable.  Of the top of my head I'd say post modernism, dualism, vitalism, and maybe a little dash of solipsism.
 
The thing I find funniest is that people who believe all this stuff are interested in reading and writing reviews.  If there is no objective truth to the quality of a cable, then why bother?

 

[Uncle Erik]

maverickronin, most of the believers have benefitted from DBT. Every medicine they take, every vaccination and much else are a result of DBT testing. And we wouldn't be having this conversation without plenty of applied science and aherence to known electrical engineering standards. At some level, they understand this.

The major problem is a lack of desire to question themselves. I haven't seen many believers who will seriously question the possibiluty of self-deception, expectation and placebo. Self-examination is pretty low in their priorities. Whether you hear something or just think you do is a legitimate question. Unfortunately, that line of questioning leads to uncomfortable realizations, so it's easier to pretend they don't exist.