Why do studio IEMs have little to no “ear gain”?

Apr 9, 2025 at 12:07 PM Post #31 of 48
You are a fan I assume? (You have name-dropped this artist a few times before :wink:)


Maybe I am the odd one out here, but TBH as the end-consumer I couldn't care less how the mastering engineer heard it or whether he thought "Yes, that is perfect". All I care about is whether I like what I hear myself. Even if I used the same IEMs as the engineer, I have different ear canals, different hearing, and almost certainly a different perception. What matters to me in the end is how it makes me feel. Knowing that the actual sound my ears "received" was the exact same as what he sound engineer heard (assuming for a second that is even possible), isn't all that relevant to me, nor is e.g. the knowledge whether or not the engineer actually liked the song.

I would like the engineer to do a good job so that the sound is enjoyable to me without any flaws that are objectionable to me, but whether he heard it the same I don't really care about.

(no offence intended, I know some of you are sound engineers).
Same here. The whole point of mastering is to make it sound good to the person actually listening to it, aka the consumer.

About the topic of whether or not the engineer actually likes the song, that’s why I kind of have a soft spot for artists who master their own stuff. Because then there’s no chance of the engineer not liking the song because the artist is the engineer.
 
Apr 9, 2025 at 3:52 PM Post #32 of 48
Same here. The whole point of mastering is to make it sound good to the person actually listening to it, aka the consumer.

About the topic of whether or not the engineer actually likes the song, that’s why I kind of have a soft spot for artists who master their own stuff. Because then there’s no chance of the engineer not liking the song because the artist is the engineer.
Indeed; some of the music that appeals to me most is self-produced, mixed, mastered and then released on e.g. Bandcamp, OTOTOY (or even iTunes). And honestly, I don't care if they use speakers, headphones, or IEMs for their mixing & mastering.

Is it perfect? No. But is it perfect? Yes!

I'm sure other sound engineers could point out many mistakes & imperfections in what those artists do (heck, even I can hear the 'mistakes' sometimes), but the end product just really hits the right spot for me.

E.g., one of my top favourite bands are all self-produced; by no means perfect mixing & mastering and many may not like this kind of music and home studio production at all, but for me this is spot-on what I like to hear. No other people involved other than the two band members (Kamiya: vocals, bass, keyboard, lyrics & album art; Megumi: guitar, recording & mastering) + one support drummer (Ohashi-san):



And this Xmas cover they recorded gives a glimpse of their "studio" setup (Megumi seems to be using some SONY headphones here and yes I know, most of the video is shot in mirror-image, they are not both left-handed):

 
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Apr 9, 2025 at 4:03 PM Post #33 of 48
Indeed; some of the music that appeals to me most is self-produced, mixed, mastered and then released on e.g. Bandcamp, OTOTOY (or even iTunes). And honestly, I don't care if they use speakers, headphones, or IEMs for their mixing & mastering.

Is it perfect? No. But is it perfect? Yes!

I'm sure other sound engineers could point out many mistakes & imperfections in what those artists do (heck, even I can hear the 'mistakes' sometimes), but the end product just really hits the right spot for me.

E.g., one of my top favourite bands are all self-produced; by no means perfect mixing & mastering and many may not like this kind of music and home studio production at all, but for me this is spot-on what I like to hear. No other people involved other than the two band members (Kamiya: vocals, bass, keyboard, lyrics & album art; Megumi: guitar, recording & mastering) + one support drummer (Ohashi-san):



And this Xmas cover they recorded gives a glimpse of their "studio" setup (Megumi seems to be using some SONY headphones here and yes I know, most of the video is shot in mirror-image, they are not both left-handed):


This might be a bit of a hot take, but I don’t think there’s such thing as objectively good mixing and mastering. It’s a matter of taste. “Good” mixing and mastering is based on industry standards, not what’s objectively “good”, because that doesn’t exist. The reason there are professional mixing and mastering engineers is so they can mix and master commercial music to comply with industry standards.

I cannot stand when people use terms like “poorly mixed” with objective wording. Heck, the music I listen to, compared to industry standards, would probably be seen as “poorly mixed”, even though it’s not intended to be “reference grade” (aka super revealing of small differences in sound quality) in the first place. It’s supposed to sound how it sounds. I see it as an artistic vision. Music is a form of art, and if there is such thing as objectively good mixing and mastering, that would mean there are rules to making music, but art has no rules, so why should music have rules?

I can go on quite a long tangent with this opinion of mine, but I won’t unless you specifically ask me to since it’s off-topic.

For clarity, everything I just said is 100% my opinion. Please don’t come after me. :sweat_smile:
 
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Apr 9, 2025 at 4:13 PM Post #34 of 48
Mastering isn't to make it subjectively better sounding. It's to adapt the mix to a particular purpose or audience. You might want different levels of compression for a TV commercial than you would on an SACD, and if your customers are going to be listening to it on the radio or earbuds, that is different than if they have high end speaker systems. Likewise, songs listened to in sequence as albums need to be balanced to flow well from song to song, as opposed to songs being listened to on shuffle play.

Mixing is a matter of balances. Finding ways to make all of the sound elements to exist side by side without overpowering each other or becoming buried in the mix. It also includes creative choices for effects like reverb. The goal is to create a master mix that works best first and foremost on the studio monitoring system. Once that's achieved, then they start thinking about how it will sound on lesser systems with headphones or smaller speakers.
 
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Apr 9, 2025 at 4:15 PM Post #35 of 48
Mastering isn't to make it subjectively better sounding. It's to adapt the mix to a particular purpose or audience. You might want different levels of compression for a TV commercial than you would a SACD, and if your customers are going to be listening to it on the radio or earbuds, that is different than if they have high end speaker systems. Likewise, songs listened to in sequence as albums need to be balanced to flow well from song to song, as opposed to songs being listened to on shuffle play.
Yes, for sure. I didn’t mean that mastering is to make it subjectively better sounding. I meant that, in general, the term “well-mixed” is a bit confusing, at least to me.

About songs in albums flowing well together… let’s just say that this is why I never share my music taste. :smile:
 
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Apr 9, 2025 at 4:15 PM Post #36 of 48
This might be a bit of a hot take, but I don’t think there’s such thing as objectively good mixing and mastering. It’s a matter of taste. “Good” mixing and mastering is based on industry standards, not what’s objectively “good”, because that doesn’t exist. The reason there are professional mixing and mastering engineers is so they can mix and master commercial music to comply with industry standards.

I cannot stand when people use terms like “poorly mixed” with objective wording. Heck, the music I listen to, compared to industry standards, would probably be seen as “poorly mixed”, even though it’s not intended to be “reference grade” (aka super revealing of small differences in sound quality) in the first place. It’s supposed to sound how it sounds. I see it as an artistic vision. Music is a form of art, and if there is such thing as objectively good mixing and mastering, that would mean there are rules to making music, but art has no rules, so why should music have rules?

I can go on quite a long tangent with this opinion of mine, but I won’t unless you specifically ask me to since it’s off-topic.

For clarity, everything I just said is 100% my opinion.
I agree (mostly), but let's not take this further off-topic 👍
 
Apr 10, 2025 at 5:01 AM Post #37 of 48
You skip the outer ear and (for most part) the skull, but yes, you still have an ear canal.
No, you don’t “still have an ear canal” or rather, you don’t still have the same ear canal. You’ve changed its length and geometry by plugging up part of it. Not only have you changed your ear canals’ frequency response, you’ve also entirely lost the freq response of your specific pinnae and skull (and other parts of your body), as well as the specific timing differential that is dictated by the distance between your particular ears. Pretty much every aspect of your HRTF is messed up with IEMs when even just messing up some aspects (as is the case with HPs) is enough to produce unpredictable, unreliable and bizarre results. The same master with the same cans will sound significantly different to different people as their perception struggles to make sense of the bizzare/abnormal auditory data they’re receiving. Many will hear the location of all the sounds in the master to be along a single plane inside their skull, some will have some sense of depth, others will hear certain sounds displaced above their head or at the back of their head, or perceive different width or separation.
With Speakers, when you Mix/Master with a Speaker distance of 1m, the result will sound wrong when listen back to it with Speakers that are placed at 1.5m due to different crosstalk. If you change the height of the seat you're sitting on, the sound will be different.
No, it won’t sound wrong when you listen back with the speakers placed at 1.5m, you don’t seem to understand what mastering is or why it exists and in addition, you don’t understand how we perceive sound (psychoacoustics). Yes, the sound is different compared to 1m but it won’t sound wrong, in fact it would probably sound wrong if it didn’t sound different! Even just moving your head a couple of inches can significantly change the sound but from the moment we’re born our brains have almost constantly experienced these acoustic changes and expects them, it’s entirely normal and unremarkable and the opposite of “will sound wrong”. What’s not normal and does sound wrong is completely bypassing significant parts of your personal HRTF and having the frequency/timing information adjusted to someone else’s HRTF, which is what happens with HPs and even more so with IEMs because you’re missing even more of the HRTF parameters. That’s why crosstalk for headphones was invented in the 1960’s and why it was necessary to develop the more sophisticated HRTF model! Speakers do not bypass any of your personal HRTF parameters and all those various, unpredictable, bizarre responses mentioned above simply do not occur at all or are far less variable.
As said, this is calculated in when creating the IEM. You should have a readup on how Custom IEM are made.
Of course that is not calculated when creating the IEM! What custom IEM service calculates the individuals’ HRTFs, let alone adjusts/compensates for the missing parts? Custom IEMs are not “custom”, every consumer of a particular “Custom IEM” gets exactly the same un-customised IEM, what’s “customised” is simply the mold/fit (and sometimes visual aesthetics, such as colour) not the IEM or it’s output. You should read up on what a “Custom IEM” is and then maybe progress on to how they are made!
A Master that was done with Speakers only sounds correct when you're sitting in the exact same position, in the exact same room, listening at the exact same volume.
No, it does not, that’s the whole point of the mastering process. What you assert would be true of “the final mix” but then the music recording industry does not typically distribute the final mix. The “final mix” is then “mastered” (technically “pre-mastered”) in order to ensure compliance with the technical limitations of the distribution format/s and ensure that the mix sounds good/correct on systems other than the studio where the mix was created, because of course no consumer has the studio where the mix was created or even a room close to it.
A Master that was done with an IEM will sound correct when you use the same IEM.
In which case, that would be a crap master made by someone who doesn’t know what “mastering” is for, unless a master was requested specifically for that IEM, which would make zero sense unless is was intended as demo material for that specific IEM.
Most people listen to music with IEM. If you Mix/Master with Speakers, it will sound completely wrong for the majority of listeners.
That’s completely wrong for two reasons: Firstly, most people do NOT listen to music with IEMs, they listen with speakers; bookshelf or desktop speakers, car speakers, Bluetooth speakers, TV speakers or the speakers built into various mobile devices. Secondly, your argument is about correctly reproducing a master on a particular custom IEM and a minuscule fraction of consumers use any sort of custom IEMs, let alone a specific custom IEM, which is why it would be nonsensical to create a master for a specific custom IEM in the first place (unless it was designed as demo material for that IEM)!
My intention was, they are more reliable than speakers because speakers start to sound different when you tilt your head.
No, that is yet another reason why IEMs are LESS reliable than speakers, NOT “more”! When you tilt your head at a live concert (and everywhere else) then the sound does indeed change. This is a reason why speakers are MORE reliable, because the sound changes when you tilt your head with speakers, as it always does with all sound everywhere else and therefore as our hearing perception expects! The sound does not change when tilting your head with IEMs (or HPs), which is contrary to what our hearing perception expects and why the results are unpredictable/unreliable from person to person. Why do you think “head tracking” was invented for HPs/IEMs, to make them sound “less reliable”?

G
 
Apr 10, 2025 at 8:13 AM Post #38 of 48
This topic is getting way off track.

Before this ends up like all the other threads in the Sound Science Forum with 1000 of pages discussing everything but the initial question.

@JamoBroGuy asked, why do Studio Reference Monitors do not have ear-gain. The answers so far have been

From @gregorio : They don't exist, its just average consumer earphone and marketing BS
From me: Mixing/Mastering Engineer who worked with the maker told the maker how they sound closest to speakers, that is the result

Does anyone else have valuable input to this initial Question? Or better asked @JamoBroGuy do you have the feeling your question got properly answered by whoever you think did it best?

If so, this Thread can be marked as solved and rest in piece.
 
Apr 10, 2025 at 8:20 AM Post #39 of 48
@JamoBroGuy do you have the feeling your question got properly answered by whoever you think did it best?
I haven’t necessarily gotten a direct answer to my question since everyone is saying different things. You and @gregorio both have experience in the pro world but are saying different things so I dont know which one of you to trust.
 
Apr 10, 2025 at 8:26 AM Post #40 of 48
I haven’t necessarily gotten a direct answer to my question since everyone is saying different things. You and @gregorio both have experience in the pro world but are saying different things so I dont know which one of you to trust.
We will never agree. He has no knowledge about Custom IEM but still talks about them like he has the knowledge. Unless i take the time and correct every statement of him with proof (which he doesn't pay me for, so why?) we will never be able to agree anything. There are threads where he is discussing since years, i am not kidding. This will never end.

But from what i understood, he never used IEM for professional work, so all his knowledge is theoretical.

I use them every day, like the other >1000 customers from FitEar using the MH334 for professional work. But of course, i can not proof that and all the other 1000 ones could be payed by FitEar, i can not proof that either. Maybe we are all stupid and do our work wrong^^ that is possible^^

If you want an definitive answer, you have to buy the speakers, set them up, buy the IEM and test it for yourself. Everything else is trusting one of us and i can tell you for sure, the cast that is active in this thread will not agree an one final answer, that is for sure^^ If you're waiting for that, you'll die before this thread will, promise :D
 
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Apr 10, 2025 at 9:25 AM Post #41 of 48
I would like the engineer to do a good job so that the sound is enjoyable to me without any flaws that are objectionable to me, but whether he heard it the same I don't really care about.

(no offence intended, I know some of you are sound engineers).
Ah, but you’re NOT causing any offence to engineers. The only offence you’re likely to cause is to audiophiles and audiophile marketers, who’ve routinely misrepresented what engineers do and are, for many decades. What you’re contradicting is that false representation!

The traditional path for commercial music engineers is “tea boy” at a studio (or more recently, formal education in audio), then a year or so as an intern, then 4 or so years as an Assistant Engineer, then an actual Engineer and maybe after several more years, Chief Engineer. They go through all these years specifically so they do NOT hear it the same as consumers, we do not go through all those years of learning just to end up where we started, hearing it the same as the average consumer. We do not want or expect that consumers hear the same as us and not only due to our listening skills training/experience but also due to our tools. This really should be completely obvious to anyone who thinks about it for 5 seconds, the problem is that many don’t, they just swallow audiophile marketing/myths and then ignore or actively fight against the “completely obvious” to defend their beliefs.

We are creating products for consumers with consumer equipment, not for engineers with mastering studios. In fact, apart from meeting some technical requirements, that is the entire point of mastering, to make the mix that sounded good to the engineer/producer in the mix studio, sound as good as possible to the consumers with consumer equipment. (Incidentally, this is why there is no mastering for feature films). It’s just audiophile myth that you should ideally hear it as the engineers or try to recreate a studio room.

G
 
Apr 10, 2025 at 10:51 AM Post #42 of 48
We will never agree. He has no knowledge about Custom IEM but still talks about them like he has the knowledge. Unless i take the time and correct every statement of him with proof (which he doesn't pay me for, so why?) we will never be able to agree anything. There are threads where he is discussing since years, i am not kidding. This will never end.

But from what i understood, he never used IEM for professional work, so all his knowledge is theoretical.

I use them every day, like the other >1000 customers from FitEar using the MH334 for professional work. But of course, i can not proof that and all the other 1000 ones could be payed by FitEar, i can not proof that either. Maybe we are all stupid and do our work wrong^^ that is possible^^

If you want an definitive answer, you have to buy the speakers, set them up, buy the IEM and test it for yourself. Everything else is trusting one of us and i can tell you for sure, the cast that is active in this thread will not agree an one final answer, that is for sure^^ If you're waiting for that, you'll die before this thread will, promise :D
Unfortunately, people almost never agreeing on stuff is a problem the entire Internet has. It’s not a big deal in this case, it was just something I was curious about since it contradicts an agenda headphones.com consistently pushes (IEMs needing a push in the upper mids to sound neutral to humans). I already have my ideal IEMs (Aful Cantor, which funny enough doesn’t have a push in the upper mids yet doesn’t sound recessed to me) so the answer to my question is kinda irrelevant to me anyway :smile:

Still not ideal though. One generally wants a straightforward answer when they ask a question.
 
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Apr 10, 2025 at 1:37 PM Post #43 of 48
Unfortunately, people almost never agreeing on stuff is a problem the entire Internet has. It’s not a big deal in this case, it was just something I was curious about since it contradicts an agenda headphones.com consistently pushes (IEMs needing a push in the upper mids to sound neutral to humans). I already have my ideal IEMs (Aful Cantor, which funny enough doesn’t have a push in the upper mids yet doesn’t sound recessed to me) so the answer to my question is kinda irrelevant to me anyway :smile:

Still not ideal though. One generally wants a straightforward answer when they ask a question.
My personal opinion, ignore what anyone says. If you like it, you like it. Enjoy it^^
 
Apr 10, 2025 at 3:44 PM Post #44 of 48
I haven’t necessarily gotten a direct answer to my question since everyone is saying different things. You and @gregorio both have experience in the pro world but are saying different things so I dont know which one of you to trust.
Tricky. Normally here it’s much easier, an “appeal to authority” is a fallacy and is therefore an invalid argument, while the assertion/s can be fact checked against scientific papers, journals or encyclopaedias. This case is tricky because it’s not directly based on scientific facts/principles but on the amount of usage of certain equipment by industry professionals, which isn’t a subject for scientific papers or encyclopaedias. So it can’t be fact checked with the usual reliable sources and there’s almost no available information other than marketing and appeals to authority. I’m pretty certain my “authority” would dwarf that of Vamp898 (my experience, what I’ve done, where and with whom I’ve worked, etc.) but that still wouldn’t prove anything. Einstein was and probably still is the most famous physicist in history but he was still wrong a number of times about certain physics assertions and I’m certainly nowhere near the audio engineering equal of Einstein.

You’ll have to judge for yourself but there are certain good “indications”: He’s made certain assertions about IEMs which have been challenged by others apart from me, as they are contradicted by psychoacoustics and can be fact checked. Also, my last response to him clearly laid out the falsehood of some of his assertions and rather than address my points with equally rational and checkable counter-arguments his reply was essentially: This is off topic, I’m just going to repeat my (false) assertion and state Gregorio has no knowledge about custom IEMs and never used IEMs professionally. Both of which are lies!

I would also add that if you search on Google you’ll find very little from professional sites regarding using IEMs for mixing and mastering, there’s quite a bit about IEMs but only for live use, musicians monitoring cue mixes when performing but not for mixing and mastering purposes. That alone is a strong indication it’s at least very uncommon because there’s countless discussions of studio monitors for mixing and mastering. You’ll probably find a fair bit on Reddit but that will mainly be from amateurs/hobbyists. You’ll find quite lot about headphone use on professional sites but you’ll find it supports my assertions: There are certain tasks headphones are good for (and have been used for those tasks for many decades) but for mixing and even more so for mastering, headphone use is typically only when there’s no alternative (a proper studio is not an option) and IEMs have even more disadvantages than HPs.

He has no knowledge about Custom IEM but still talks about them like he has the knowledge. …

But from what i understood, he never used IEM for professional work, so all his knowledge is theoretical.
So that’s it, you can’t address a single one of the refutations I posted, your only response is to make up two complete lies about me personally? You think that approach is going to be effective here or will it just demonstrate you know you’ve been called out and have nothing other than a typical kindergarten defence?

G
 
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Apr 10, 2025 at 3:53 PM Post #45 of 48
Unfortunately, people almost never agreeing on stuff is a problem the entire Internet has. It’s not a big deal in this case, it was just something I was curious about since it contradicts an agenda headphones.com consistently pushes (IEMs needing a push in the upper mids to sound neutral to humans). I already have my ideal IEMs (Aful Cantor, which funny enough doesn’t have a push in the upper mids yet doesn’t sound recessed to me) so the answer to my question is kinda irrelevant to me anyway :smile:

Still not ideal though. One generally wants a straightforward answer when they ask a question.
Simple, read stuff like this https://www.researchgate.net/public...d_Modelling_Techniques_of_Ear_Canal_Acoustics and some more on HRTF(how frequency response changes between people and between directions), then try to invent a rational about why a single FR(frequency response) can replace everything and why it's good for everybody. If you can do it, you didn't understand HRTF or human hearing.
And I'm saying that as someone with great respect for all the work done on headphones and IEMs by Harman, or the ideas from the OG at etymotic guys and a few others. They all knew better but got asked to look for the best choice among all the bad ones, and they delivered something on that flawed request.
After all, one FR is what headphone and IEM makers had to offer, so they did make up rationals with weak assumptions so that some curves would look a tiny bit more objective than others. The most famous of them is the diffuse field target. Someone went like: "We're screwed with that single FR target BS they ask us to invent, everybody here knows it should change with position and listeners. So here's my solution, we'll make a room so horribly reverberant that the position of the sound source won't even matter anymore, we'll measure that somehow with some standard to reject human differences, find some average, problem solved". Someone else went: "I'll measure speakers at 30° on some statistical average dummy head and copy it onto whatever". Someone else went: "I like that, so I'm selling IEMs with that FR". And of course someone went: "I put a driver into some shell my cousin designed based on how he knew how to make molds in that shape, it has a weird FR, but I'll market it as super audiophile stuff and some sucker will buy it if I spend all the money I didn't use on acoustic engineers and R&D, on marketing".

Ultimately, even if all was great and IEMs weren't a strange experience feeling nothing like a band playing somewhere in front of you, or even speakers, you'd still have what I explained last time. We could have as much as 10dB difference between our respective amount of ear canal gain because of the differences in our ear canals.
Some IEMs go deep in the ear, some do not, how do you factor that in some generalization about FR? Let's just talk practicality. Various measurement rigs won't let you insert the IEM like you would in your own ear(I sure could never insert my ER4 in my various cheapo couplers like I did in my own ears, and in my one experience of something with a fake outer ear, some shells wouldn't fit properly). Some people even insist on always getting the same distance between the driver and the coupler when measuring IEMs(admittedly some of the earliest measurement standards suggested as much, but then again they also suggested an amplifier with an output impedance of 100+ohm ^_^ great to measure IEMs...). Given how much impact insertion can have on the actual gain and the frequency of the resonances, who cares about who's got the longest career, the biggest penis, what some studio in Japan thinks is right, or the more intuitively believable rational? Different people are different. Different IEMs are different (even within the same pairs by some margin), Different measurement sources are giving different FR graphs for various reasons (one being that different couplers, exactly like different ears, have different acoustic impedances).
It's expecting a consensus on something entirely listener dependent, that's absurd. It's no better than arguing over what's the best food(po ta to!)

So from that, is there a trend in FR for IEMs aimed at Sound engineers to have less gain around 3kHz? Are IEMs aimed at the sound engineer even made for mixing outside a live concert? Perhaps. I do not know the answers. But if such a FR trend does exist and is favored by engineers, is it because it's more neutral? NO! That I can answer with confidence for the reasons explained here and in my previous answer to you. We all have ear canals, they create resonance, and we have always heard sounds IRL with it included. I cannot fathom what logic could ever justify removing it to get closer to neutral. It simply doesn't make sense.
But you, enjoying something that doesn't show much boost on some graph, obviously that's very fine. Out of the bunch of possibilities around that premise, I cannot say which one concerns you and that IEM in particular. Maybe the music genres you like don't suffer from reducing that area? Maybe you have a narrow and fairly short ear canal, and you still need some boost to sound neutral, but between too much boost and not enough, not enough simply feels much better? Maybe you're like me and hate having too much 4kHz and an IEM with a flat raw FR between 1 and 5kHz never hisses or hits too hard? IDK I'M not you. But I don't believe it has anything to do with sound engineers mixing on IEM or some FR being universally flat.
 

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