[halcyon]

Not being an EE nor having any useful understanding of electronic components quality, I nevertheless read and tried to understand Cyril Bateman's article series "Capacitor Sound" in Electronics World.

He's developed (by his own words) a measuring technique to measure the harmonic and intermodulation distortion in caps. He measures at various voltage levels and in single/series connections.

What he found out was that the audio world's beloved Black Gates are nearly the best terms of distortion (at the voltages / capacity levels he measured) at their price range.

In fact, much cheaper bi-polar electrolytics in series or more expensive polypropylene foil produce much less distortion (IMD being the one I'd put my eyes on). Mr. Bateman didn't even measure (at least in the first article series) the more expensive paper oil caps etc.

So, my questions:

- Has anybody who has wide knowledge in Capacitor measurements and audio usage read the article? What say you?

- Why is everybody still using Black Gates when better measurable sound signal can be achieved cheaper (if one is to believe Mr. Bateman)?

- Does it just boild down to "it sounds better" argument? (which is quite fine by me, btw).

Just trying to understand this and get some sense to this cap madness

cheers,
halcyon

 

[aos]

I'm not familiar with those measurements, but let's say they are true. The answer to your question would then be the same as the reason for (still) using tubes.

And if measurements are incorrect (for example if you are to judge by measured impedance, it has been shown that Black Gate behaves as a capacitor into few hundred kHz up to MHz region, while most electrolytic caps start losing it at 10-20kHz) then I feel the question would be different as well.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Why do people insist on using Black Gates?

I think they like what they do to the sound of the music. This is just a hunch, but I could be wrong.

 

[halcyon]

I cannot assess the correctness of Mr Bateman's measurements. However, he is a capacitor engineer with several years of experience in the field and he's findings has been discussed for example in the DIY Audio forum:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-5107.html

Anybody can order his full set of measurements, explanation of results and detailed info on his measurement methodology. He's selling a cd full of measurements and additional data at £15 or so from:

C. Bateman
Nimrod
New Road
ACLE
Norfolk, NR13 3BD
England
UK

The Electronics World reprints are available for purchase via:

http://www.softcopy.co.uk/mag/defaul...fulllist&id=83

I'm not affiliated with either, just passing along the info for those who might be interested.

In short, his work seems to be the most detailed and accurate publicly available data anywhere (?). At least according to the peeps in various forums (as I said, I cannot assess this myself).

So, why Black Gates?

Is it just the "sound" or do they have some redeeming measurable properties as well (for certain types of applications)?

 

[rsaavedra]

Hope the Blackgates are not too bad, recently I placed an order for 5 of them for the Vinnie Rossi mods on the audio board of the Toshiba 3950. Among other possible reasons, it seems Rossi recommends the Blackgates because of their synergy with his other recommended upgrade, the Burr Brown OPA2604 opamp.

 

[aos]

As I mentioned, their impedance is linear to the frequency up to (much) higher frequencies than typical electrolytics. Effectively they are much "faster". That's their marketing claim, you can find graphs describing this at many places that sell Black Gates. And whatever the case is, they have achieved considerable reputation. They are also easiest to get (just try to get Elna Silmic or Cerafine without finding a distributor and buying a large minimum). Even if there is something better, the competiton should do a FAR better job of making themselves available for purchase. As long as that's the case, BG will rule regardless of technical merit.

From tidbits in diyaudio thread, it seems that C0G/NPO ceramics are good, which confirms what's already known and is a good reaffirmation. New PPS film (which I personally like to use) are also considered good, which is more good news. I'd like to know if he measured polymer / organic electrolytics.

 

[Edwood]

You could always use more exotic caps like paper in oil, metallized film caps, but they will cost a LOT more, and that's IF you can find them in a higher rating that you would probably need.

-Ed

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

Well, based on my experience with BGs, they sound great. I bought them because they are generally considered to be the best. Until I use a part that sounds better, or a revolutionary wave convinces people to use something other than BGs I have no reason or desire to change.

 

[aphex944]

I think what it boils down to is that distortion measurements are simply not going to tell you if a capacitor is going to sound better than another in most cases. Same goes for opamps, and many other components.

 

[A3rd.Zero]

It is well known that the BG's require a great deal of burn in. Did the measurements taken regarding the BG's account for that by burning them in before hand? If not, the measurements, may not tell us as much as we thought.

Milo

 

[minya]

What I've always wondered about Black Gate capacitors is...

... are they a ******* Tolkien reference or what? (i.e. Black Gates of Mordor)

Either way, though, it's a pretty cool name.

- Chris

 

[beerguy0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedr Hope the Blackgates are not too bad, recently I placed an order for 5 of them for the Vinnie Rossi mods on the audio board of the Toshiba 3950. Among other possible reasons, it seems Rossi recommends the Blackgates because of their synergy with his other recommended upgrade, the Burr Brown OPA2604 opamp.

How are the BG caps used? Are they bypass caps? I just built my first amp a while back, and it uses an OPA2604 as a voltage gain stage, driving a MOSFET follower output, Class A, DC coupled. I used generic electrolytic caps on the opamp, because that's what was in the stockroom at work, but I'm not opposed to spending a few bucks for some caps.

Cheers,

bg

 

[Demolition]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus Why do people insist on using Black Gates? I think they like what they do to the sound of the music. This is just a hunch, but I could be wrong.

Wayne,

A lot of people will back you up on that sentiment. Several of them have said so in reviews, as well. For example, Martin Colloms raves about them in this article (reprinted from Hi-Fi News). Although Colloms is somewhat gushy in his assessment of Black Gates, that's generally the response that people have to them.

So, you're not wrong.

D.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerguy0 How are the BG caps used? Are they bypass caps? I just built my first amp a while back, and it uses an OPA2604 as a voltage gain stage, driving a MOSFET follower output, Class A, DC coupled. I used generic electrolytic caps on the opamp, because that's what was in the stockroom at work, but I'm not opposed to spending a few bucks for some caps. Cheers, bg

Beerguy, I really don't know enough electronics to answer your question correctly. I know the black gates are used to replace some caps that are near the opamp on the Toshiba's sound board. What their function truly is right there, I really don't know. Here's the link to Vinnie Rossie's mods, maybe that can give you a hint:
http://home.nc.rr.com/keihin/toshiba3950/vinniemods.htm