Why do/don't "audiophile" cables improve sound?
Dec 7, 2007 at 6:27 AM Post #31 of 293
Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So when people say there is no difference between cables, they actually mean there is no audible difference.


Certainly no "dramatic" or repeatable differences, in my experience. Rolling cables is just boring as hell. Rolling tubes, capacitors, etc. <-- Fun.
 
Dec 7, 2007 at 6:37 AM Post #32 of 293
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarchi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Certainly no "dramatic" or repeatable differences, in my experience. Rolling cables is just boring as hell. Rolling tubes, capacitors, etc. <-- Fun.



I'd have to agree. When building my PPA, I experimented with Jupiter 28ga copper wire, and 22ga cryo tread UPOCC copper neotech cables, and mogami mic cable. No audible differences, no measurable differences.

So from now on I'm sticking to the Mogami, its cheap and it gets the job done.
biggrin.gif


Swapping opamps though during the build....
biggrin.gif
biggrin.gif
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good times.
 
Dec 7, 2007 at 8:09 AM Post #34 of 293
Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Yes.

Its all about process.

If cables measuring differently is A, and those differences making an audible change is B.

Then first, you have to prove A is true. But then you have to prove than B is true. Because A can be true without B being true.


Cables measuring differently is a well known fact. However, even partially controlled studies have shown they don't make an audible difference.

So when people say there is no difference between cables, they actually mean there is no audible difference.


You must realize that the audio band is very narrow, and very slow. It is not very demanding in the slightest.



Which study is that? What is there methodology? How did the study come up with its conclusion? Can you prove this study has relevancy to the topic at hand? I want absolute objectivity/empiricism. I am putting my Hume hat on. Link away.
 
Dec 7, 2007 at 9:08 AM Post #35 of 293
I'm not going to be really specific because I'm not a professional. Shielding for me makes the most noticeable difference in what I hear. I use pretty sensitive phones, so I even pick up line noise from objects around the cable (static even gets into the little IEM cable for the UE11). My hearing probably isn't near the best, but its pretty audible in the difference between straight teflon, braided teflon, and a cotton insulation. Microphonics are a problem too depending on the construction of the headphone cable for IEM.

I also think that a larger gage helps sound quality to a certain point. I wish I had a formula for diminishing returns on that, but I'm also not an electrical engineer. It has a lot to do with what your source puts out in power I think. Silver and copper sound pretty different until you get into really large gages, but I believe that is because of the difference in capacitance.

I really value the DIY here on head-fi who are great at what they know and don't charge a huge markup because of their knowledge. I personally believe the reason why many claim lampwire is equal to a top cable is because of the gage issue where you get diminishing returns. I don't really trust double blind testing because it seems like the goal in the A-B matching is to try to make them sound the same. Take a cable out of its environment and it won't shine to your ears as well. No one IMO should be fooled into buying a $300 per foot audio cable, especially for headphones, for once it hits that price there is a great difference in the the price for the work and materials and the price they charge. Interconnects probably have the largest diminishing returns of any active component of a system.

I hope to actually learn more from this thread, so a little criticalness is important.
 
Dec 7, 2007 at 9:44 AM Post #36 of 293
Here is some info that I deemed very insightful from long ago:
(the source Warren with EE degree from Stanford)

Any of the people who try to have empirical discussions about cables will bring up figures like capacitance. They mean well, but they are almost universally using a linear no-threshold model without realizing it. A linear no-threshold model is embodied in the concepts "less capacitance always produces equivalently better sound" and "you can never have too little capacitance."

The problem is that a linear no-threshold model is essentially never physically valid. In the context of audiophile gear, many people misunderstand that capacitance is necessary for your amplifier to operate properly. Almost all op-amps, for example, require some load capacitance to remain stable. If you lower the capacitance, the amplifier will begin to distort or, worse, spontaneously oscillate. Op-amps are designed for efficiency over a relatively broad range of acceptable load capacitances, and thus capacitance does not obey a linear no-threshold model. Furthermore, the engineers who built your sound equipment stuck some capacitors on the board specifically to make sure the amplifier always sees enough load capacitance.

Besides -- look at the specifications on your cables. Almost all of them, even the super high-grade cables, will have capacitances in the ballpark of 10-20 pF per foot. The lesson is that you should be more concerned about the length of your cables than the type of your cables, if you worry about capacitance at all. (And you probably shouldn't.)

don't forget those chintzy 3.5mm mini-phono plugs! They're terrible from an electrical engineering perspective. They have large capacitance, large contact resistance, etc. If you're really concerned about interconnect, why not use modern connectors like SMA or SMB that have vastly superior electrical characteristics? That'll certainly have a much larger effect on the overall transmission line than simply connecting two mini-phono plugs with a wire as big as a baby's arm.

The second figure everyone brings up is resistivity. Since you're not driving power over your interconnect, resistance should be the least of your concern. If you look at the telegrapher's equations, you'll see that real resistance only contributes to attenuation. In other words, you'll lose some signal amplitude over a length of cable if its resistance is high. Real resistance does not alter the transmitted waveform in any other way; it does not affect waveform shape or spectral content. [these brackets are my personal notes: I have never tried an attenuator that did not dull the sound in an unlikeable way. A good passive preamp that will do this without audibly affecting the sound usually costs over $2000 from information I can find because I obviously wouldn't pay]

Oxygen-free copper and so on provide improvements in resistivity of at most about 2%. This means, well, essentially nothing. It means you'll have to turn the knob on your receiver a couple more microns clockwise if you use normal cables. [personal note time again: I read that the process removes iron impurities from the copper, those couple of extra notches could cause more distortion or clipping to be imparted. Thats audible.]

It's already been discussed here many times, so I won't belabor the point, but there's no point in using an enormous cable to connect integrated circuits. Forget about the pins on the iPod dock. Forget about the 10 micron board traces. Realize that inside the black plastic package of your integrated circuits, the signals are being carried on tiny gold wires thinner than a human hair. [my customary personal thought: why should one flaw lead to another? I personally hope they aren't gold wires, I rather prefer silver or copper as conductors. I think the gold is there to prevent corrosion or tarnish which affects sound quality. to clarify, silver oxidation problem isn't audible because of the resulting chemical not changing properties of capacitance. Copper oxidation causes problems. Tarnish will very likely cause problems every time with the connection]

Anytime someone tries to personify electrons, or make weird analogies between fluid flow or feng shui and electron conduction, be wary: that person doesn't know anything about how signals actually propagate through wires. [yeah, thats probably a good point, I don't think its quite that simple, but it could work for a working man metaphor I suppose]

Anyone who tells you they can hear things that cannot be conclusively shown on a decent-quality oscilloscope is lying to you (and probably to themselves, as well). Measurement equipment is hundreds or thousands of times more sensitive than human senses. It's positively silly for someone to claim that they can hear something that a high-end spectrum analyzer cannot detect. [no comment here, he's the professional]

On the other hand, almost no one can really tell the difference between cables, even experienced audiophiles. Perhaps a few people really can, but the majority of the market cannot. This means the market cannot reliably set prices, which is why you find cables priced at anything from $1 to $3000. [Alright, I understand audiophiles tend to be obsessive compulsive. Tube amps for coloration, but the want for neutral cables point taken. "But the spectrum analyzer!" you might say. Its probably inaudible, you may want the comfort in knowing its there. Still seems pretty obvious that most high-end cable manufacturers have an unreasonable markup once you calculate the cost of materials and manufacturing. Your money is better spent elsewhere unless you have more money then you can spend.]

When you get down to the small, relatively unknown companies, no one really knows which ones are better, and the prices between them can fluctuate wildly with no real rhyme or reason.

I personally feel the best hi-fi system is the one you enjoy the most. "Enjoyment" is a subjective term, of course. Personally, I enjoy musical variety more than anything else. I love having (and knowing) a large collection of music, because I enjoy always having the right music for every occassion. I like always being able to get people dancing at
parties. I like having people come up to me and say "wow, I love this music, what is it?" I like taking road trips with people, and having them tell me later that the best part of the trip was the music.

Other people like the look of their sound systems. They want lights and meters and fancy looking interconnects. Maybe they want to impress people, or maybe lights and meters are just their thing. To them, it's incredibly important that their system look as good as it sounds. So be it.

Other people simply view cables as the "final touches" on their masterpiece sound system. They may admit that it doesn't really affect the sound perceptibly, but they enjoy the system more because it feels "complete" and finished to them. So be it.

Again, the best hi-fi is the one you enjoy and use the most.
- Warren

[maybe I'll search out the original post some time]
 
Dec 7, 2007 at 2:25 PM Post #37 of 293
Quote:

Originally Posted by manaox2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Copper oxidation causes problems. Tarnish will very likely cause problems every time with the connection


I've often wondered about this... With copper speaker wire, the cable will eventually oxidize, especially where the wire is bare. Could this be the cable burn-in that many people hear?

This thread has been a good read, so far. Since I don't have any electrical background whatsoever, I'll make my exit.
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Dec 7, 2007 at 2:39 PM Post #38 of 293
Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I've often wondered about this... With copper speaker wire, the cable will eventually oxidize, especially where the wire is bare. Could this be the cable burn-in that many people hear?

This thread has been a good read, so far. Since I don't have any electrical background whatsoever, I'll make my exit.
smily_headphones1.gif



I've heard a good theory that cable burn-in is the result of the settling of the dielectric properties from the shielding. Eventually it stabalizes.

Copper oxidation is not good at all, it ruins a cable.
 
Dec 7, 2007 at 8:04 PM Post #39 of 293
Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If you read that, and understand it, it does not even come close to explaining it at all.


In fact, that isn't even on topic. That excerpt is about jitter, not cables.



Actually, Yotacowboy excerpt is about jitter AND cable. In short, it said jitter and cable does not matter because the local clock and jitter buffer eliminated all the artifacts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yotacowboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
here's the short of it:

impedance mis-match can cause standing waves in a digital cable carrying SPDIF signal.

Standing waves can cause timing errors when the bits are converted to an audio signal.

Timing errors (jitter) can create noise in the audio signal.

This noise occurs at frequencies which we can hear. in other words, this shows how impedance can affect audio.



This is partially correct. Mismatched impedance will create reflection and cause bit error. This is why all cables must have a standard specification to meet to make sure there is no mismatch. Mismatch is a human error not a cable flaw.

Jitter does not create noise either. Jitter is a time domain issue while noise is a frequency domain component.
 
Dec 7, 2007 at 8:15 PM Post #40 of 293
Quote:

Originally Posted by manaox2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Here is some info that I deemed very insightful from long ago:
(the source Warren with EE degree from Stanford)

Any of the people who try to have empirical discussions about cables will bring up figures like capacitance. They mean well, but they are almost universally using a linear no-threshold model without realizing it. A linear no-threshold model is embodied in the concepts "less capacitance always produces equivalently better sound" and "you can never have too little capacitance."

The problem is that a linear no-threshold model is essentially never physically valid. In the context of audiophile gear, many people misunderstand that capacitance is necessary for your amplifier to operate properly. Almost all op-amps, for example, require some load capacitance to remain stable. If you lower the capacitance, the amplifier will begin to distort or, worse, spontaneously oscillate. Op-amps are designed for efficiency over a relatively broad range of acceptable load capacitances, and thus capacitance does not obey a linear no-threshold model. Furthermore, the engineers who built your sound equipment stuck some capacitors on the board specifically to make sure the amplifier always sees enough load capacitance.

Besides -- look at the specifications on your cables. Almost all of them, even the super high-grade cables, will have capacitances in the ballpark of 10-20 pF per foot. The lesson is that you should be more concerned about the length of your cables than the type of your cables, if you worry about capacitance at all. (And you probably shouldn't.)

don't forget those chintzy 3.5mm mini-phono plugs! They're terrible from an electrical engineering perspective. They have large capacitance, large contact resistance, etc. If you're really concerned about interconnect, why not use modern connectors like SMA or SMB that have vastly superior electrical characteristics? That'll certainly have a much larger effect on the overall transmission line than simply connecting two mini-phono plugs with a wire as big as a baby's arm.

The second figure everyone brings up is resistivity. Since you're not driving power over your interconnect, resistance should be the least of your concern. If you look at the telegrapher's equations, you'll see that real resistance only contributes to attenuation. In other words, you'll lose some signal amplitude over a length of cable if its resistance is high. Real resistance does not alter the transmitted waveform in any other way; it does not affect waveform shape or spectral content. [these brackets are my personal notes: I have never tried an attenuator that did not dull the sound in an unlikeable way. A good passive preamp that will do this without audibly affecting the sound usually costs over $2000 from information I can find because I obviously wouldn't pay]

Oxygen-free copper and so on provide improvements in resistivity of at most about 2%. This means, well, essentially nothing. It means you'll have to turn the knob on your receiver a couple more microns clockwise if you use normal cables. [personal note time again: I read that the process removes iron impurities from the copper, those couple of extra notches could cause more distortion or clipping to be imparted. Thats audible.]

It's already been discussed here many times, so I won't belabor the point, but there's no point in using an enormous cable to connect integrated circuits. Forget about the pins on the iPod dock. Forget about the 10 micron board traces. Realize that inside the black plastic package of your integrated circuits, the signals are being carried on tiny gold wires thinner than a human hair. [my customary personal thought: why should one flaw lead to another? I personally hope they aren't gold wires, I rather prefer silver or copper as conductors. I think the gold is there to prevent corrosion or tarnish which affects sound quality. to clarify, silver oxidation problem isn't audible because of the resulting chemical not changing properties of capacitance. Copper oxidation causes problems. Tarnish will very likely cause problems every time with the connection]

Anytime someone tries to personify electrons, or make weird analogies between fluid flow or feng shui and electron conduction, be wary: that person doesn't know anything about how signals actually propagate through wires. [yeah, thats probably a good point, I don't think its quite that simple, but it could work for a working man metaphor I suppose]

Anyone who tells you they can hear things that cannot be conclusively shown on a decent-quality oscilloscope is lying to you (and probably to themselves, as well). Measurement equipment is hundreds or thousands of times more sensitive than human senses. It's positively silly for someone to claim that they can hear something that a high-end spectrum analyzer cannot detect. [no comment here, he's the professional]

On the other hand, almost no one can really tell the difference between cables, even experienced audiophiles. Perhaps a few people really can, but the majority of the market cannot. This means the market cannot reliably set prices, which is why you find cables priced at anything from $1 to $3000. [Alright, I understand audiophiles tend to be obsessive compulsive. Tube amps for coloration, but the want for neutral cables point taken. "But the spectrum analyzer!" you might say. Its probably inaudible, you may want the comfort in knowing its there. Still seems pretty obvious that most high-end cable manufacturers have an unreasonable markup once you calculate the cost of materials and manufacturing. Your money is better spent elsewhere unless you have more money then you can spend.]

When you get down to the small, relatively unknown companies, no one really knows which ones are better, and the prices between them can fluctuate wildly with no real rhyme or reason.

I personally feel the best hi-fi system is the one you enjoy the most. "Enjoyment" is a subjective term, of course. Personally, I enjoy musical variety more than anything else. I love having (and knowing) a large collection of music, because I enjoy always having the right music for every occassion. I like always being able to get people dancing at
parties. I like having people come up to me and say "wow, I love this music, what is it?" I like taking road trips with people, and having them tell me later that the best part of the trip was the music.

Other people like the look of their sound systems. They want lights and meters and fancy looking interconnects. Maybe they want to impress people, or maybe lights and meters are just their thing. To them, it's incredibly important that their system look as good as it sounds. So be it.

Other people simply view cables as the "final touches" on their masterpiece sound system. They may admit that it doesn't really affect the sound perceptibly, but they enjoy the system more because it feels "complete" and finished to them. So be it.

Again, the best hi-fi is the one you enjoy and use the most.
- Warren

[maybe I'll search out the original post some time]



This is an excellent writeup. The essence is cable issue usually happens in long length (Km) and high frequency (MHz). This is why LAN cable has a specified length and telephony cables needs to add loading coil for long run.
 
Dec 7, 2007 at 8:25 PM Post #41 of 293
Quote:

Anyone who tells you they can hear things that cannot be conclusively shown on a decent-quality oscilloscope is lying to you (and probably to themselves, as well). Measurement equipment is hundreds or thousands of times more sensitive than human senses. It's positively silly for someone to claim that they can hear something that a high-end spectrum analyzer cannot detect. [no comment here, he's the professional]


Are we to conclude we've already learned absolutely all there is to learn about human auditory perception?

Perhaps it is from an electrical engineer's perspective...
 
Dec 7, 2007 at 9:05 PM Post #42 of 293
Quote:

Originally Posted by dvw /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Jitter does not create noise either. Jitter is a time domain issue while noise is a frequency domain component.


Jitter does create noise on DA conversion. The amount of the noise depends on the size of the error (~130ps being the threshold for 16 bit signal) and the frequency of the noise is the frequency of the signal itself ± frequency of the jitter.
 
Dec 7, 2007 at 9:11 PM Post #43 of 293
Quote:

Originally Posted by viggen /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Are we to conclude we've already learned absolutely all there is to learn about human auditory perception?


No, but we know exactly that we did only put the things on the recording that we know about. Or do you asume we "accidently" record a attribute, store it, reproduce it, amplify it, change it back to sound again without knowing about it?

You say: "Maybe I can hear things that can not (yet) be measured."

I say: "If you really can, there's nothing like that on the recording in the first place"

Even if the knowledge about what is going on inside any component (in an electrical or physical way) was as poor as you think:
What matters, is that the transducers at both ends of the chain (microphones, synthesizers on the "front end", loudspeakers or headphones on the other end) receive or produce only one thing: changes in air presure level (or electricity of a certain quality in case of the synths).
You're really, really sure that your ears are more reliabel when it comes to measuring sound pressure levels than a microphone?
Your ears (or better: the thing in between them) are ansurpassable, when it comes to receiving and interpreting music. But for measuring air pressure, they plain suck.

Guys, you are not discussing quantum physics here. It doesn's matter at all, what the cable or any other component does.
At the end of the day, you can measure what is beeing converted to sonic waves.

It helps to keep in mind, that after all a headphone is nothing but a piece of plastic moving back and forth, forcing the air in front and back of it to move.

That's at least one way of explaining why audiophile cables do not improve sound.
 
Dec 7, 2007 at 9:54 PM Post #45 of 293
Quote:

Originally Posted by dvw /img/forum/go_quote.gif
<snipped>
This is partially correct. Mismatched impedance will create reflection and cause bit error. This is why all cables must have a standard specification to meet to make sure there is no mismatch. Mismatch is a human error not a cable flaw.

Jitter does not create noise either. Jitter is a time domain issue while noise is a frequency domain component.



This is not quite correct. Impedance mismatch would have to be rather drastic to create a bit error at these rates. Timing errors related to edge detection would be much more likely. The transmitter / cable / receiver make up a system which if mismatched, will cause problems... how audible? I don't know but worth fixing? Yes.

Some interesting reading:

Digital audio transmission, SPDIF, and Jitter | Peufeu's Electronic Stuff

On cables in general, I always liked the thoughts of Bruno Putseys (sp?), an ex-Philips engineer who is now involved in class-D amps as well as Grimm Audio who IIRC makes studio DACs, etc.. These were posted a few years ago (2002-2004 timeframe) on rec.audio.equipment, where he said that yes, he did hear differences in cable, but as an engineer, it always bothered him because he felt there shouldn't be any differences. He claims that impedance mismatches were the probable cause and was discussing working towards a standardized interface specification for components to minimize/eliminate this problem. He felt that if it was eliminated, differences would no longer be heard, or at least minimized. The Audiogeek cables of a couple of years ago were done using a termination method (ProSink?) devised by Kevin Gilmore which IIRC was intended to do something similar.

When I got back into hi-fi in the late '90s, I started down the cable path (AudioAsylum, etc.), but decided there were better avenues for me to spend money (and time) on.. so I'll leave it at that.
 

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