WHY do Audio GD's PCM1704 - DACs "only" accept 96 khz??? 1704 accepts up to 800khz !!!
Dec 1, 2010 at 2:55 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 14

ursdiego

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Hi there everybody!
 
Being an owner of a reference 8 DAC, I wonder why it "only" can accept up to 96 khz.
 
Now most of us believed that the PCM1704 Chips were not able to accept higher frequencies. But it turns out that this is not true. They handle up to 800khz.
 
Actually, resolution audio uses them in their dacs at frequencies always next to 800khz (a CD gets 16x oversampled to 705.6 khz). And it works. And it sounds just great...
 
Is there any particular reason you would be aware of, why kingwa (audio gd) implements his pcm1704 DACs only at 96khz???
 
May there by a possibility to "tune" them to higher frequencies or higher upsampling, e. g. "tuning" the DSP1 digital input filter?
 
Cheers!
 
Dec 1, 2010 at 3:07 PM Post #2 of 14
My guess would be that it´s because 8x oversampling is enabled by default. With a lesser oversampling mode, maybe it is possible? You´ll need to wait for regal to notice this thread for a real answer :)
 
Dec 1, 2010 at 3:23 PM Post #3 of 14
96 hz with 24bits is the digital input rate (sampling frequency (hz) and data word(bits)) and oversampling is a digital filter apply after the input to smooth the sound.
 
The pcm1704 only support 8x upsampling and 24/96 input but output at 768hz (8x96hz) to the analog stage like audio-gd do.
 
Dec 1, 2010 at 3:53 PM Post #4 of 14
The reason why PCM1704 audio-gd DACs are limited to 96K is because of the oversampling filter.
 
The PCM1704 can accept up to 768KHz. Given that Audio-gd is using an 8x oversampling filter by default, it means that the maximum acceptable rate is 8 x 96 = 768 KHz.
 
The DSP1 digital filter can accept up to 192KHz. In that case, the upsampling should be set for no more than 4x (4 x 192 = 768). Doing that would enable playing back 192KHz files but would reduce the playback quality of all the other files (44.1, 48, 88.2, 96). Most people who have compared the 4x and 8x oversampling settings in the DSP1 preferred the latter.
 
There is also the issue of the Digital filter. Kingwa has compared both the 24/96 DIR9001 and other 24/192 digital fitlers (such as the very commonly used CS8416) and found that the DIR9001 was superior souding.

From all of that, it seems that in order to accomodate for 24/192 playback, it would involve one or more compromises (reduced oversampling and/or lesser digital filters) for something that might not even be beneficial.
I remember reading somewher that Dan Lavry said it is pointless to go beyond 24/96 and that many DACs behave poorly at 24/192. Benchmark (and a few others) are setting the upsampling rate to 110Khz instead of 192KHz because the DAC they tried actually perform better at those sampling rate.
That is not to say that 24/192 is bad. But it doesn't necessarily mean that a move from 24/96 to 24/192 will always yield an improvement.
 
Some say that anything above 16/44 is pointless because human ears can't hear beyond 20K which is below the 22K frequency that CD can reach. While it is true that we don't hear above 20K in the frequency domain, using a CD or DAC at 16/44 causes time domain and phase distortions that fall back in the audible range. Transients amongs others get smeared at 16/44 especially with "regular" linear phase/fast roll off filters. The DACs that don't have a gentle roll off before 20K are actually the worst sounding and the most poorly designed. That is why we have seen the rise of new filters that use minimum phase and apodizing filters that sound more natural to our ears.
Those who still believe that anything beyond 16/44 is useless, I invite you to read Kunchur papers on the subject of temporal resolution (here: http://www.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/Acoustics-papers.htm). In his testing of the limits of human temporal resolution, he couldn't find a CD Player that was good enough (or accurate enough) for the testing. He high to use a high resolution analog wave generator for the testing. If the CDs (16/44) were "perfect forever", why wouldn't be sufficient for the testing?
 
To sum up, I would say that the reason is valid regarding the limitation at 96KHz. I believe that most libraries out there are composed of 44.1, 88.2 and 96, and it would be a bad idea to compromise the playback of 99% of the files (for the majority) in order to make it possible to "read" 24/192.
As an example, I would rather listen to MP3s on my dac19dsp than to 24/192 files on my emu0404usb.
 
The new NFB series that use the ES9018 sabre chips are a little bit different. The ES9018 can accept 24/192 and are much less prone to jitter (in paper) than most DACs out there. I wonder why Kingwa hasn't given the possibility to use one the new 24/192 WM8805 digital receivers instead of the DIR9001. Even if there is a trade-off in jitter quality (which might not even be the case), it wouldn't involve a trade off in oversampling/filtering like it is the case for the dsp1/pcm1704uk combo...
 
Dec 1, 2010 at 9:14 PM Post #6 of 14
slim.a, you have singlehandedly restored my faith in Head-Fi with your succinct, well-thought out response to the OP's query. Bravo.
 
Those of us who have experienced (poorly implemented) 24/192 upsampling will happily 'settle' for 24/96 or (and I may be alone here) may actually prefer 16/44.1 with some of their music. Sacrilege, I know, but 'bigger' isnt always better.
 
Dec 1, 2010 at 10:30 PM Post #7 of 14


Quote:
Hi there everybody!
 
Being an owner of a reference 8 DAC, I wonder why it only can accept up to 96 khz.
 
Now most of us believed that the PCM1704 Chips were not able to accept higher frequencies. But it turns out that this is not true. They handle up to 800khz.
 
Actually, resolution audio uses them in their dacs at frequencies always next to 800khz (a CD gets 16x oversampled to 705.6 khz). And it works. And it sounds just great...
 
Is there any particular reason you would be aware of, why kingwa (audio gd) implements his pcm1704 DACs only at 96khz???
 
May there by a possibility to "tune" them to higher frequencies or higher upsampling, e. g. "tuning" the DSP1 digital input filter?
 
Cheers!


 
Rediculous antiquated technology, no excuse.  Shoot me a PM if you want to get rid of that Re8.  I'll help you out as I am sure no one else would want a 96k limited DAC.
 
 
Dec 2, 2010 at 3:51 AM Post #8 of 14
Hahahah :) Well replied, dear Regal :wink:
 
It was a purely "academic" question if you want so, I use 99% files ripped from CD anyway........ and they sound just great. But the same way as 48khz was top notch not so long ago, there will perhaps come the time where whatever transport delivers more than 96khz by default (even though it might not sound better, but sells better, very much like all those more-than-6-megapixel compact point and shoot cameras being sold now again right before christmas ) .
 
However, in several threads in this forum I came over the statement that PCM1704 is limited to 96khz, and then I found out, that this was not true. That is where my confusion came from.
 
Let me just clarify, that I am a lawyer, and even though I assume, that I am technically rather skilled and interested (at least compared to the average lawyers), I am not an engineer, so I have all the right to pose naive questions (that is the part I can tell for sure, being a lawyer :wink: )
 
Dear Slim.a, now this was a hell of a reply! Thanks a million!
 
So, just to summarize and be sure I got it right: Even though setting the DSP1 input filter at a lower oversampling rate like 2x or 4x, this would not enable the DAC to accept higher khz rates, because of DIR9001, that is however the best option?
 
Best regards and thanks!
 
Dec 2, 2010 at 5:36 AM Post #9 of 14
You just misunderstand it all and since you "only" use 16/44.1 files from cd it make no difference at all, you can still use so called "high-definition" audio that are mostly at 24/96 with your dac even if the difference between the two depend mostly of the mastering.
 
Just like with digital photography highter pixel count do not count for better image quality its all come from lens and chip.
 
Do not worry about numbers. :wink:
 
Dec 2, 2010 at 3:43 PM Post #10 of 14


Quote:
 
So, just to summarize and be sure I got it right: Even though setting the DSP1 input filter at a lower oversampling rate like 2x or 4x, this would not enable the DAC to accept higher khz rates, because of DIR9001, that is however the best option?
 
 



Yes limited by the DIR9001, which I'm told is one of the lowest jitter receivers out there BUT there is the WM8004 by Wolfson that Kingwa uses in one of his smaller DACs; it supports 24/192 and has very low jitter. I tried to  ask them how it compares to the DIR9001 and/or if it can be installed in the REF7 but didn't get a response. Would like to know though.
 
Dec 2, 2010 at 9:03 PM Post #11 of 14


Quote:
Hahahah :) Well replied, dear Regal :wink:
 
It was a purely "academic" question if you want so, I use 99% files ripped from CD anyway........ and they sound just great. But the same way as 48khz was top notch not so long ago, there will perhaps come the time where whatever transport delivers more than 96khz by default (even though it might not sound better, but sells better, very much like all those more-than-6-megapixel compact point and shoot cameras being sold now again right before christmas ) .
 
However, in several threads in this forum I came over the statement that PCM1704 is limited to 96khz, and then I found out, that this was not true. That is where my confusion came from.
 
Let me just clarify, that I am a lawyer, and even though I assume, that I am technically rather skilled and interested (at least compared to the average lawyers), I am not an engineer, so I have all the right to pose naive questions (that is the part I can tell for sure, being a lawyer :wink: )
 


I knew you were a lawyer,  I have two siblings that are lawyers,   now I'm really going to have to give you a hard time :)
 
 
Dec 2, 2010 at 9:14 PM Post #12 of 14


Quote:
I knew you were a lawyer,  I have two siblings that are lawyers,   now I'm really going to have to give you a hard time :)
 


Suddenly, all my misgivings about Head-Fi are crystallized in a single thread. I think I owe that kid who painted his Grados purple an apology.
 

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