[Shark_Jump]

I have a question that I have been getting conflicting answers to and would appreciate some expert opinion.

My Cambridge Audio 640C v2 has broken. Whilst contemplating getting a new CD player I considered an alternative option, which is to use the coaxial output from my blue ray player as the input to a stand alone DAC.

I have spoken to two dealers, one agrees with me wholeheartedly and recommends the Cambridge Audio DacMagic. Another didn't make much sense and told me a stand alone DAC would be a waste of money and to use the DAC in my AV Amp (Sony 2400ES).

My logic tells me that for low/mid range hifi, a stand alone DAC is the way to go as you are spending the highest percentage of your outlay on audio components to convert the PCM code to analogue. And not waisting it on loading mechanism, drives, laser etc you probably already have laying around at home in the form of an old DVD or CD player.

Another thing I don't understand is that (on the slim chance my above logic is correct) there are so few standalone DAC's in the main street shops as I would imagine 90% of potential buyers of dedicated CD players would be better off buying a DAC.

 

[Suntory_Times]

I think you're dead on there with you're assumptions. The reason for the lack of stand alone dacs could be varied, one is, it is better to have a good transport to dac and they are high-fi stores and so are involved in achieving the best possible sound (or should be). Plus the route you're suggestion would no doubt lead to less money bieng made.

 

[panda]

cdp's sound better than a good dac with a mediocre transport. plus there are a lot of great cdp's where as of all the dac's i've tried only a few were worthwhile. however i'm with the dac camp simply because of the convenience of having the entire library accessible without changing discs.

 

[Shark_Jump]

Thanks Panda, could you elaborate what you consider as mediocre transport? Surely the transport on any mainstream $100 DVD player would be satisfactory? Most DAC's >$300 can overcome jitter in the PCM signal anyway.

Why are so many DAC's not worthwhile? Were these recommended and didn't suit your system? I am looking for a more analogue but still detailed sound and have a budget of $500US.

The reason I originally asked the question is I have $500US to spend on getting the best analogue signal from my CDs into my amp. As I already have a (bluray) player the DAC route appears to me to be the optimum solution. I am sure this would be the same for a LOT of others also.

 

[apatN]

I was thinking the exact same thing and have yet to understand it fully. Here are some nice links:
nugent
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/cd-...36/index2.html

 

[krmathis]

No idea why... Buying a DAC make more sense to me.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark_Jump /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks Panda, could you elaborate what you consider as mediocre transport? Surely the transport on any mainstream $100 DVD player would be satisfactory? Most DAC's >$300 can overcome jitter in the PCM signal anyway.

A transport only has to do one thing, to deliver an accurate bitstream. I have used CD players and DVD players as transports and also PCs, I have never found any difference between transports feeding the same DAC. I do not know what is meant by mediocre transport, a transport either delivers an accurate bitsream (good) or it does not (bad). I would only add that some transports can be mechanically noisy, DVD players tend to be somewhat noisier in my experience than most CD players.

Jitter is frankly a non issue. Jitter deterministically or randomly degrades the analog output, random jitter lowers bit-depth below 16 bits for CD if it is high enough, deterministic jitter gives rise to specific measurable distortion sidebands. These tend to be 80 to 120db down on signal except in pathological cases such as crappy PCDPs with anti-shock circuits enabled.

Over 10 years ago Benjamin and Gannon of Dolby labs (Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on Digital Audio Quality, 1998) measured jitter in commercial audio components and did controlled listening tests , they also scoped out in detail the measurable effect of different levels and spectra of jitter on waveforms. They determined the audible thresholds for deterministic jitter (the worst kind) to be lowest (mean 10ns) for a pure single high 20K tone using a jitter signal (17Khz) . When embedded in music the jitter had to be about 30ns.

The worst (afaik) single audio component on the market for jitter is the Oppo 970H multi-format player with p-p jitter of 4ns. However the majority of jitter on the Oppo is much more like random jitter (broadly spead over the bandwidth) so the effect is much less marked, random jitter audibility thresholds are nearer 250ns (Ashihara et al, 2005) . The Oppo is a really bad example, generally CD players run to between 150 and 700ps.

Life has many things for us to worry about, there really is no need to make jitter one of these...

 

[apatN]

Quote:

Originally Posted by krmathis /img/forum/go_quote.gif No idea why... Buying a DAC make more sense to me.

In this case it's whether or not it's better to have your music on HDD or using the real disc. Properly ripped music looks like the best method but some people swear CD players as a transport sound better. Don't know.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Go for the DAC - it makes the most sense. I'd suggest buying one with two or more inputs - you should run your computer into it as well as your Blu Ray.

Personally, I've had a tough time telling digital sources apart. I mostly look for quality construction and a reputation for reliability. I ran computer-as-source for awhile with a PreSonus Central Station (I recommend it), but gave it up for a few reasons. One, I like SACD. The resolution may or may not matter, but they tend to be recorded and mastered to higher standards - something I appreciate. Also got seduced by vinyl, which gives me access to many recordings not on digital. Also, my father's computer died so I gave him the one I had been using as a server.

Anyhow, don't worry too much about a loss in sound quality. Most digital sources, DAC or CDP, are quite good today. The recording and transducer are most important, then the amp. Digital sources are pretty far down the list and we get new chipsets every 18 months; no need to invest there. Vinyl is mechanical, so good equipment actually helps. Also, quality shows up big in FM tuners - something more audiophiles should own.

 

[Shark_Jump]

Thanks for the all the advice. Can anyone recommend a DAC for $400US? Looking for analogue richness but digital detail?

Its a bit of a revelation to me that the DAC route is the way to go (as opposed to purchasing a CDP). Although it makes perfect logic to me, I asked the question due to the fact it does not appear to be a 'high street' option with the major brands. It should be as the market out there would be huge.

Please note I am only considering low/mid range hi/fi here. If you are spending $20k+, saving $200 on a transport probably wouldn't be a concern!

 

[MatsudaMan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark_Jump /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the all the advice. Can anyone recommend a DAC for $400US? Looking for analogue richness but digital detail? Its a bit of a revelation to me that the DAC route is the way to go (as opposed to purchasing a CDP). Although it makes perfect logic to me, I asked the question due to the fact it does not appear to be a 'high street' option with the major brands. It should be as the market out there would be huge. Please note I am only considering low/mid range hi/fi here. If you are spending $20k+, saving $200 on a transport probably wouldn't be a concern!

I recommend the Musical Fidelity V-DAC for 299US. I think it has a great balance of nice detail and a rich and luscious tonality - almost tube-like. Check out the V-DAC thread for more opinions and impressions. Although I haven't heard it, the Cambridge DacMagic is also supposed to be a winner for 399US.

 

[jilgiljongiljing]

I almost obsoleted my CDP recently when I connected an old desktop to a 500gb disk with all my music, connected to the Dacmagic to my amp->speakers.

I still use the CDP only for SACD, not so much for cd's anymore since I have all the FLAC in my media library. I honestly think this is such a big time and effort saver and it sounds just as good to me.

 

[Suntory_Times]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark_Jump /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the all the advice. Can anyone recommend a DAC for $400US? Looking for analogue richness but digital detail? Its a bit of a revelation to me that the DAC route is the way to go (as opposed to purchasing a CDP). Although it makes perfect logic to me, I asked the question due to the fact it does not appear to be a 'high street' option with the major brands. It should be as the market out there would be huge. Please note I am only considering low/mid range hi/fi here. If you are spending $20k+, saving $200 on a transport probably wouldn't be a concern!

I'd strongly recommend the DAC magic. However I would suggest (if at all possible) trying before you buy.

 

[Shark_Jump]

Thanks Uncle Erik. Your holistic approach to the problem is appreciated.

I'm actually listening to Fleetwood Mac 'The Chain' using the Sony 2400ES as my DAC right now and it doesn't sound bad at all. Perhaps I can get a cheap second hand DAC with valve just for fun to recreate that 70's amp sound.

[Actually ignore that I have had too much wine last night. After 10mins it sounds like a hippo bouncing on a trampoline. I need a DAC.]

 

[mrarroyo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark_Jump /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the all the advice. Can anyone recommend a DAC for $400US? Looking for analogue richness but digital detail? ...

Right now there is an Oritek V4.0 on sale for $290. It is a fantastic dac w/ an analog sound.