why bother with all this $$$ equipment?
Mar 15, 2011 at 4:17 PM Post #46 of 90
it would be a good result if some reading the thread are introduced to the issues of recording/mastering practice influence on sound as being mostly independent from the recording/playback technologies
 
many CD releases of many popular genre of music are really poorly mastered due to the still huge "Loudness War" dynamic range compression used to "sound louder" than the next guys CD release - of course now its just not to sound softer since everybody is doing it
 
 
I wouldn't call the typical multi-miced analog tape mix down which in older analog practice may require several intermediate analog tape "bounces" and another "remastering" with phonoplayback specific processing "simpler" or "purer" - and then read up on the master cutting, replicating, stamping issues with vinyl
compared to modern practice with signal digitized at the mic/preamp and kept in hi rez digital until the final noise shaped dither decimation/down sampling to RedBook  -  the "problem" is what people intentionally choose to do with the digital mastering tools
 
 
 
Mar 15, 2011 at 5:11 PM Post #47 of 90


Quote:
What potential? Vinyl is a dead end format. Why? As an analogue format, it is not nearly as good as reel-to-reel tapes, the sound quality degrades with each and every play (tapes too but with much less degradation), and the SQ is also not consistent throughout the whole disc, with the beginning of a 12" LP having twice the resolution as the end.
 
The professional industry did not get lazy with the ease of digital mastering, in fact the early digital recording and mastering system like the U-matic system is much harder to use than analogue tapes, the main reason they used it is that a digital copy of the original is 100% identical. Unlike CDs, tapes and vinyl records can never sound identical to the master, there will always be some added distortion during copying or the manufacturing process.
 
Like I said many times before, it's fine to say you think analogue sounds better, but it is fundamentally wrong to say vinyl records are technically more superior. In fact for analogue lovers, all you need to do to get that analogue sound is to record a CD with a reel-to reel tape and you will get that analogue sound playing it back, so why go through the trouble of actually getting a turntable system at all, where the sound quality would be limited by the physical defects of the disc itself?  
wink.gif

 


 


 
No one said Vinyl is technically superior, but you can't say CD is always superior to Vinyl as a medium either.  That is because the fundamental nature of both mediums is different.
 
CDs and SACDs are NOT identical to the master recording.  I hope there is a format that allows it in the future but currently it is not at all.  The bit rate, sampling frequencies and other control factors when an artist or musician records is not in the 44.1khz 16bit on a CD, it is much higher.
 
For example: An producer I know releases both CD, Vinyl and online wav/mp3s for his "Digitally produced" music.  For a single release I own the WAV from beatport, the CD with the track, and the 12'' Vinyl.  The CD and the Wav sound identical but the 12'' Vinyl sounds superior for that specific track.  I am not sure of the reason why but I know the "Master copy" that the producer holds is higher resolution and quality than both the CD and the Vinyl.  From this example alone I learned that CD, Vinyl, and Tapes are simply different pieces of paper that audio artist draw on.  Maybe a professional recording musician can shine some light as to what they store master copies on.
 
Yes Vinyl does degrade over time and yes it isn't as consistent as digital bit perfection but due to this...
 
I have thought of digitizing vinyl as well many times but if you want to go into fundamentals, the idea of bouncing back and forth between recordings only introduces degradation. . 
I worry every time I listen to my rare Vinyl because of if I ever scratch it or simply wear/tear will damage the record.  I have tried to covert it to digital format but because that involves Analog> Electrical signal > Digital, then during playback Digital > Analog again the sound quality is never good.  It requires thousands of dollars of equipment to get a proper digital copy of a vintage Vinyl, and even the people who share it online stress it's nothing compared to the direct record to speaker.
 
I think you have a very valid point but I don't agree that digital CDs have become advanced enough to reduce vinyl/records into a gimmick.  As far as I know, they still produce something that digital medium and more importantly digital playback has not been able to do.  The vibration of a A class cartridge stylus cannot yet be mimicked by a CD bitstream and a DAC.  I hope the day it can comes soon.  I am a fan of both, but all my CD collection is sitting in a nice display case and has been all converted to FLAC on my computer.  When I can afford a reference level Vinyl recording setup, you can guess where my Vinyl will be sitting... a acid free dust free storage display case.
 
Mar 15, 2011 at 5:49 PM Post #48 of 90
This thread reminds me  of the lyrics from The Rolling Stones tune  19th Nervous Breakdown, "your father still perfecting ways of making sealing wax", that's to say, some folks have not yet recognized  vinyl is over, and CD's are going. Vinyl was good, but inconvenient; plus, pops interrupted the illusion. CD's were O.K.;  but, no wonder downloads became popular, after all, who wants to pay ten dollars or more for a CD when there's only one song on it that you want. Computer audio and downloads are where it's at today. The resurgence in vinyl is a fleeting novelty, yet, I suppose there will always be vinyl, as well as CD, given folks aren't inclined to destroy their collections; and, folks, inheriting those collections, are curious enough to want to listen to what's on the media. . 
 
Mar 16, 2011 at 2:04 AM Post #49 of 90
You are right, most records are mastered at a higher bit rate than CDs since the 90s, usually at 24bit/96kHz, I was referring to the earlier CD mastering formats before that, like the Umatic, DAT or CDRs, which were 16bit/44.1kHz, when most records were still released in both CD and vinyl formats. The vinyl version can sound better to you, not because it sound more like the original master, it's actually because they sound different due to the added analogue distortion when it was remastered on analogue tape. I don't know how they master vinyl records nowadays, but until the 90s, one can only get a lacquer master cut from 1/2" tape master. I really don't think it's even fair at all to compare CD with vinyl because there are so many factors that can compromise the SQ of a vinyl record: the lacquer cutting, the metal master, the stampers, the pressing process. They all can contribute really un-desirable physical distortions to the vinyl even before it gets on the turntable, and that is to say, no two vinyl records sound 100% identical. With CDs too, maybe they are not 100% identical physically, but thanks to the wonderful error correcting system, the decoded digital signal should be more or less identical to the original 16 bit master. I really don't think what people like is the sound character of vinyl records, what they like is the analogue sound character.
 
Of course one can preserve the analogue sound character with digital, that's how all the old analogue recordings are preserved nowadays, if you think 16bit/44.1 kHz is not good enough, you can transfer them to digital at 24bit/96kHz. All the original master tapes from the 70s and 80s are disintegrating, a lot of them have to have special treatments (baking/steaming) to make them even playable, then they are transferred into digital and remastered form there on. If analogue is more superior, wouldn't they have been copies onto analogue tapes instead? There is no signal degradation when bouncing in digital but there are always degradation and distortion when bouncing in analogue. A lot of producers and engineers are still into that analogue sound character, there are special plug-in nowadays to give that analogue character to digital recordings. To cut a long story short, one can get the analogue sound character with a digital master, but it's near impossible the other way around, because digital is much more transparent comparing to analogue. 
wink.gif

 
Quote:
No one said Vinyl is technically superior, but you can't say CD is always superior to Vinyl as a medium either.  That is because the fundamental nature of both mediums is different.
 
CDs and SACDs are NOT identical to the master recording.  I hope there is a format that allows it in the future but currently it is not at all.  The bit rate, sampling frequencies and other control factors when an artist or musician records is not in the 44.1khz 16bit on a CD, it is much higher.
 
For example: An producer I know releases both CD, Vinyl and online wav/mp3s for his "Digitally produced" music.  For a single release I own the WAV from beatport, the CD with the track, and the 12'' Vinyl.  The CD and the Wav sound identical but the 12'' Vinyl sounds superior for that specific track.  I am not sure of the reason why but I know the "Master copy" that the producer holds is higher resolution and quality than both the CD and the Vinyl.  From this example alone I learned that CD, Vinyl, and Tapes are simply different pieces of paper that audio artist draw on.  Maybe a professional recording musician can shine some light as to what they store master copies on.
 
Yes Vinyl does degrade over time and yes it isn't as consistent as digital bit perfection but due to this...
 
I have thought of digitizing vinyl as well many times but if you want to go into fundamentals, the idea of bouncing back and forth between recordings only introduces degradation. . 
I worry every time I listen to my rare Vinyl because of if I ever scratch it or simply wear/tear will damage the record.  I have tried to covert it to digital format but because that involves Analog> Electrical signal > Digital, then during playback Digital > Analog again the sound quality is never good.  It requires thousands of dollars of equipment to get a proper digital copy of a vintage Vinyl, and even the people who share it online stress it's nothing compared to the direct record to speaker.
 
I think you have a very valid point but I don't agree that digital CDs have become advanced enough to reduce vinyl/records into a gimmick.  As far as I know, they still produce something that digital medium and more importantly digital playback has not been able to do.  The vibration of a A class cartridge stylus cannot yet be mimicked by a CD bitstream and a DAC.  I hope the day it can comes soon.  I am a fan of both, but all my CD collection is sitting in a nice display case and has been all converted to FLAC on my computer.  When I can afford a reference level Vinyl recording setup, you can guess where my Vinyl will be sitting... a acid free dust free storage display case.



 
 
Mar 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM Post #50 of 90
What Jcx said above:
 
"many CD releases of many popular genre of music are really poorly mastered due to the still huge "Loudness War" dynamic range compression used to "sound louder" than the next guys CD release
- of course now its just not to sound softer since everybody is doing it"
 
is so true it is the root of all evil here.
 
A huge example is the Beatles 9/9/09 box set, which is an amazing, night&day remastering, with a wonderful balanced sound with out shouting or strange artificial peaks or piercing highs.
It almost sounds as good as Hi-Rez. If they can do it, why can't everyone else?
 
OK, my rant of the day is over.
 
 
Mar 17, 2011 at 7:32 PM Post #51 of 90


Quote:
A huge example is the Beatles 9/9/09 box set, which is an amazing, night&day remastering, with a wonderful balanced sound with out shouting or strange artificial peaks or piercing highs.
It almost sounds as good as Hi-Rez. If they can do it, why can't everyone else?
 
OK, my rant of the day is over.
 



Was there not a high res release of these on a USB key?  Why bother with that when the CDs sound as good as it gets?
 
For those debating against vinyl, why bother?  For those debating in favour of vinyl: I feel your pain.  I grew up during the casette and CD craze.  Cassettes quickly outsold vinyl during my youth and CD overtook cassettes during my formative teen years.  Before I invested in vinyl, I had 1000 CDs and I wasn't keen on extending myself into the vinyl world without real merit.  What did I do?  I researched.  I read through sites like Hydrogen Audio.  I read though Audiogon and Audioasylum.  I read Stereophile, and TAS and even EE journals.  I went the academic route. The "scientific" route first.  Then, I smartened up and made some calls, locally.  I searched out folks who had obscene systems in all ways: grandeur and $$$$.  They had it all (not unlike Mike up there with the best system I've ever encountered online or otherwise) and these folks, like Mike, seemed to prefer vinyl, even when digital was side by side and the money in digital was substantial and there wouldn't be any reason to prefer one over the other save for personal preference because - via experience - vinyl WAS better.
 
Wasn't Einstein who remarked about experience?  Something akin to if one continually encounters the same result, repeating the measures is akin to insanity?  Right.
 
So, here I was, sitting in various homes of folks who had vinyl rigs that cost more than the house I lived in at the time, and their digital setups weren't far off, and you know what?  I liked the sound of the vinyl better than the digital almost every time.  Why is that?  I'm not sure, but I wasn't about to drop considerable coin into a new format given that downloads were the future, high res ones from speciality companies in particular.  Buying into a pricey physical format seemed counter-intuitive and I'n not one to do anything blindly.  
 
Well gosh darn it! EAch time I visited a new home, or a new shoppe, wherein I could compair side by side CDs vs, their purely analogue counterparts, I nearly always preferred the vinyl.  
 
My last test then needed to be conducted before buying in: get a CD and an LP where, all things being equal, the sole difference would be at the very tail end of the process with one set of files dropped to a CD and another set cut to an LP. This was easy with many modern releases digitally recorded and processed all the way down the line save for the last step.
 
Guess what?  Most often I was left feeling that the LP sounded better.  Why this is I'm still not entirely sure of (though I have informed and pretty scientific opinions on the matter) but in the end I dove head first into an analogue rig and I haven't looked back. 
 
Digital, particularly files are SO MUCH EASIER to deal with on a day to day play by play basis (though not in an archiving management sort of way), but the sound is at least a single step down, if not many times down, even from a rather dismal TT as compared with the CD playback chain.  We can wax poetic about DVD-A or SACD or even Blu-ray, and true they are better (though not always and not always in an obvious way) but save for SACD which I find to generally sound better than PCM-based music, vinyl still comes out on top.
 
The decision then came down to: sonics vs. volume.  I could own more CDs, I could upgrade my rig, OR I could divert the funds into vinyl.  I didn't do it as some form of peacock dance.  I didn't try to boast about my decision, in fact if I mention this to anyone I interact with routinely offline, they think I'm nuts, save for one gent.  So then, why bother?  Because it sounds better.  That's it, that's all.
 
What I hate to read are absolutes wherein the science behind hearing and perception (which is still largely a mystery) is held to a higher level than the experience of those who can relate, with VERY high frequency, the appreciation for vinyl over CD.  Had I listened to those who went by the raw numbers, I'd be missing out on what I consider a superior auditory experience.  Why deprive this for someone else?  When asked what I prefer, I respond accordingly with the anticipation that the questioner will give it a go themselves.  Like Mike, I'm not here to preach and convert, but I think when asked, stating the obvious and with the hope of perpetuating positive experiences, why not?  For those that can't hear a difference, or prefer CD, hey, that's cool too.  But to declare that CD IS better and that those that think otherwise are delusional, insane, stupid or have an agenda, well.... that's simply vitriol at its foundation.  I have no agenda, but I do have a passion for listening to music and I hope to better such experiences by bettering my gear over time.  Until digital, to me, surpasses vinyl, I'll continue concentrating on my vinyl rig rather than my digital rig, if only because so many companies are releasing music on LP.  Methinks in the near future the options will be: vinyl or downloads.  In that case, vinyl every time, if only for the resale value for my heirs :wink:
 
 
Mar 18, 2011 at 12:54 AM Post #52 of 90
I'd love to know if the people advocating vinyls subjective qualities can verify that they are in fact listening to pressings of the exact same master. There's many out there, and I'm sure a quick google will result in something. There's even vinyl (modern metal for example) that are pressed directly from CD (Boris comes to mind). I dont think anyone is going to sit down and say a better mastering job (which, as I already said was due to physical limitations) is going to sound worse than a bad mastering job between these two formats, but when advocates say "Analog is king" or "Vinyl is the best", they're making fundamental errors about the actual media. More correct would be to say "<X> is better on vinyl".
 

 
Quote:
 
What I hate to read are absolutes wherein the science behind hearing and perception (which is still largely a mystery) is held to a higher level than the experience of those who can relate, with VERY high frequency, the appreciation for vinyl over CD.  Had I listened to those who went by the raw numbers, I'd be missing out on what I consider a superior auditory experience



What you're assuming here is that people are looking for subjective qualities in sources like you would in say, a headphone (eg, the HD650). The ultimate source component is 1:1, and that's not even close to being debatable.
 
A CD gets closer to 1:1 than vinyl does, if we're pushing the absolute limits of the media
 
On the subject of pet peeves, one of mine is the people who talk about quantisation noise without the understanding of how small each quantisation point is, and indeed that we do not receive "blocks" of sound when listening to digital sources - because that would require an infinite velocity from a speaker.
 
 
 
 
Mar 18, 2011 at 1:05 AM Post #53 of 90


 
Quote:
 
...My last test then needed to be conducted before buying in: get a CD and an LP where, all things being equal, the sole difference would be at the very tail end of the process with one set of files dropped to a CD and another set cut to an LP. This was easy with many modern releases digitally recorded and processed all the way down the line save for the last step.
 
Guess what?  Most often I was left feeling that the LP sounded better.  Why this is I'm still not entirely sure of (though I have informed and pretty scientific opinions on the matter) but in the end I dove head first into an analogue rig and I haven't looked back...

 
you still have left a major logical flaw - there really are no records cut with exactly the same signal as recorded in the digital source distribution
 
if there were the cutting/stamping/turntable/tonearm/cart/preamp signal chain has plenty of "clearly audible" errors/differences which give your amp a way different electrical signal input than playing the digital distribution through a DAC
 
the most practical "fair" test is to take the analog output of the "audibly superior" vinyl rig from the RIAA preamp and then insert a SOTA  ADC/DAC digital path to compare with in bypass mode
 
when hi rez formats have been similarly compared with a inserted CD resolution path the difference hasn't been heard with music signals
 
"the numbers" for the latest, SOTA studio quality ADC/DACs leave so little technical room for errors in converting/reproducing audio analog signals that ascribing preference for "vinyl sound" to "something bad digital does to the sound" is moving into anti-scientific "vitalism" theories
this wasn't true at the beginning of CD audio - DACs, ADCs have benefited from hugely accelerated technical development riding on other multi Billion $ markets, the technical demands of some markets like Medical Ultrasound Imaging are now driving ADC performance beyond Audio demands - until ~ the beginning of the last decade Audio ADC/DAC was one of the most demanding combinations of sample rate, relative bandwidth, S/N and linearity requirements with enough $ to spur new chip development
 
vinyl may be the more reliable source of good "musical" sound studio recording/production/mastering practices - but that's not due to limitations and faults of the best digital Audio is capable of
 
Mar 18, 2011 at 1:47 AM Post #54 of 90
I do not have an agenda either, but to say vinyl surpasses digital is insane and very misleading. Like I said before, the sound quality of pressed vinyl is always going to be inferior to that of a reel to reel tape recorder : a vinyl record made from a tape master will always sound worse than the original. And if the vinyl record was mastered from a digital master, be it 24 bit or 16 bit, it can never be as good as the original. Before the lacquer get cut, the master tape has to go through an EQ (which get counter EQed by the phono amp during playback) to boost the high frequencies and lower the low frequencies, without the EQing process, a 33.3 rpm 12' vinyl record would probably only have a playtime of 10 minutes per side and have so much background noise that one could hardly hear the music. Depending on the length of the recording, the sound level of the original master gets attenuated (or compressed during post-production) to limit the dynamic range since the signal to noise ratio of vinyl records is only 60dB at best (70dB with a virgin direct cut), compare to 1/2" tape at 70dB (80dB with Dolby A) or digital at 96dB (or 144dB with 24 bit). If you prefer the sound of vinyl, it probably means that you like the added distortions during the transferring process, from digital to analogue, and all the post production that needed to be made in order to cut the lacquer master, and not because the sound quality is better. 
wink.gif

 
Quote:
I have no agenda, but I do have a passion for listening to music and I hope to better such experiences by bettering my gear over time.  Until digital, to me, surpasses vinyl, I'll continue concentrating on my vinyl rig rather than my digital rig, if only because so many companies are releasing music on LP.  Methinks in the near future the options will be: vinyl or downloads.  In that case, vinyl every time, if only for the resale value for my heirs :wink:
 



 
 
Mar 18, 2011 at 9:01 AM Post #55 of 90
A lot of technical jargon is being spun here to support arguments. To me, it's all gobbledygook. It's the music after all, not the media. It's all good,  vinyl, CD, SACD, and 256 iTunes downloads. I cannot really distinguish a superiority for vinyl over CD; and, with annoying pops, I'm distracted from the illusion with vinyl. So, for me it ends up being what's most appropriate for the occasion. It's not an either, or argument.
 
Mar 18, 2011 at 10:27 AM Post #56 of 90
As a long-standing member of Team Vinyl Rocks, I agree with JCX.
 
The fact that vinyl records (sometimes) sound better than CD's is simply a result of the fact that the 2 mediums are (sometimes) mixed differently. In the case of older records, where the record and CD are mastered differently the differences can be HUGE. In the case of truly modern records, where it is common for the CD and vinyl to use the same master the difference is pathetic and vinyl is a waste of time. Sorry.
 
There is also a lot of music that is ONLY available on vinyl, so if any of that interests you it is important (and less expensive than many would guess) to have a nice record player. Most of what audiophiles consider nice, I consider a waste in this regard. With care you can set up a REALLY nice vinyl system for less than $1000, which dosnt buy you much in the way of high end digital.
 
 
 
 
As something of a tangent: Its not really hard to build a nice digital rig. Why obsess over something that for most people is set it and forget it? Considering the efforts of head-fi to make it a "just buy audio-GD" decision without any thought at all it really is a binary decision - Do I want a DAC or not? 2 choices, a 1 or a 0. Vinyl has sooooo much more going on, and while it does have faults changing parts often has drastic results.
 
Mar 18, 2011 at 10:52 AM Post #58 of 90


Then again: a famous blind test report from 1984; http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm
 
Regards,
 
L.
 
 
Quote:
this wasn't true at the beginning of CD audio - DACs, ADCs have benefited from hugely accelerated technical development riding on other multi Billion $ markets, the technical demands of some markets like Medical Ultrasound Imaging are now driving ADC performance beyond Audio demands - until ~ the beginning of the last decade Audio ADC/DAC was one of the most demanding combinations of sample rate, relative bandwidth, S/N and linearity requirements with enough $ to spur new chip development
 

 
Mar 18, 2011 at 11:16 AM Post #59 of 90
Mar 18, 2011 at 11:31 AM Post #60 of 90
There is a huge debate that vinyl sounding better.  I've heard both over mega buck systems.  Yes vinyl can sound incredible and ultimately this is all up to you, not reviewers, shop owners, forum freaks.  I loved vinyl but a huge pain in the butt.  Cleaning and care and table setup etc.  Unless you have time, $$$, no kids (or a nanny), tons of space for storage my choice would be digital on a hard disk.  One of the best systems I ever listened to had all solid state gear and was cd playback: Mark Levinson reference everything: 31.5 trans, 30.6 DAC, 33 mono blocks w/220V.  Speakers were big MBL Radialstrahler's.  Listening to Pink Floyd's "The Wall" MFSL.  I have never heard that album sound that good on any other system vinyl included.  Of course Mikey Fremer hasn't invited me to hear that on this system so maybe.
 
Quote:
Hey folks As I've noticed, everyone is into finding the best equipment to make their audio sound the best it possibly can.
 
However, our audio collections are built on Cd. As i have found out, CD sampling cuts off above the 22 kHrtz frequency, since the human ear can only hear under this grequency...
 
There is much debate over CD vs VINYL; i think there isn't much to debate and that vinyl just sounds better since it reaches the 48khrtz frequency range. Everyone admits vinyl audio is much richer.
 
I have been making my collection from my CD for years and i come to the realisation that maybe, no matter what kind of amps and pre-amps and all-this-pricy-equipment i can find, it will never beat two speakers, an amp and a turntable. If all i am after is high fidelity audio.
 
Thank you.
 
 



 
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top