Why Are Most Popular DACS in Head-Fi the Couple Few, but In 2 Channel Much Wider Range of "Popular Options"

[tutetibiimperes]

I would say it’s quite the opposite. Majority of 2ch systems are not playing well enough to clearly show all the difference between DACs.

I saw many speaker systems, but almost all of them either could not reproduce the entire frequency range (small 6.5-8 inch woofer without a subwoofer), or stood in an untreated room, where the reflections distorted the sound noticeably. And most often I see systems with both problems together.

Speakers almost always sound more impressive, but less resolving. I think that’s the reason why 2ch guys are less picky when it comes to DACs.

True, the room effect is usually the biggest detriment to speakers being able to resolve as well as the best headphones.

If you have a great room that’s been acoustically designed and treated and great speakers they should be able to pull ahead, but those are an extreme minority of cases.

I’ve seen a surprisingly large number of very nice speakers set up in minimalist rooms with hard floors and virtually no coverings or any kind of diffusion or absorption anywhere on the walls. While digital room correction can help to a large degree, setting up in a big echo chamber is always going to lead to subpar results.

 

[paradoxper]

My experience is like 180 degree from yours. Much easier to identify and appreciate better dacs over speakers than headphones. headphones are really midfi equipment no matter how much money you dump into it.

Definitely. Even something like the SR1a pales compared to my Martin Logan speakers.

 

[iFi audio]

I would say it’s quite the opposite. Majority of 2ch systems are not playing well enough to clearly show all the difference between DACs.

I saw many speaker systems, but almost all of them either could not reproduce the entire frequency range (small 6.5-8 inch woofer without a subwoofer), or stood in an untreated room, where the reflections distorted the sound noticeably. And most often I see systems with both problems together.

Speakers almost always sound more impressive, but less resolving. I think that’s the reason why 2ch guys are less picky when it comes to DACs.

Those are words of wisdom. Rooms either make or break systems and are of critical importance, while headphones pretty much completely eliminate that issue. But conversely... headphones won't do what 18" paper cones tend to

headphones are really midfi equipment no matter how much money you dump into it.

Yes, headphones are rather affordable considering how much one can very easily spend on speakers and amps.

 

[chesebert]

Those are words of wisdom. Rooms either make or break systems and are of critical importance, while headphones pretty much completely eliminate that issue. But conversely... headphones won't do what 18" paper cones tend to



Yes, headphones are rather affordable considering how much one can very easily spend on speakers and amps.

No need to make "room" a bigger issue than it actually is. If you have a square room, I understand your concern and I feel sorry you have to live in one (but that's neither here nor there). But for 99% of the people, if you have a crapy room, just sit closer to the speakers. It's not rocket science; plus if you ever move your speakers to a better location within the room or to a better room, you get instant upgrade that's essentially free.

Honestly you should ask AMR/iFi to send you to different shows that they participate in - you will realize how limiting headphones are (even the HE-1).

 

[bfreedma]

No need to make "room" a bigger issue than it actually is. If you have a square room, I understand your concern and I feel sorry you have to live in one (but that's neither here nor there). But for 99% of the people, if you have a crapy room, just sit closer to the speakers. It's not rocket science; plus if you ever move your speakers to a better location within the room or to a better room, you get instant upgrade that's essentially free.

Honestly you should ask AMR/iFi to send you to different shows that they participate in - you will realize how limiting headphones are (even the HE-1).

The room is almost always the limiting factor of speaker performance at the listening position. No speaker can overcome that. Repositioning speakers and/or the listening position may result in marginal improvement, but in most rooms leaves a lot of that speaker performance you paid for on the table.

Sitting closer to the speakers isn’t going to help with a bad room. In fact, it’s probably worse as the reflectioned sound takes even longer to reach the listener, becoming more obvious as the delays increase. Probably not doing the sound stage any favors either

I‘m consistently surprised by how many people spend tens of thousands of dollars on speakers but nothing on room treatments and corrective DSP. Literally every room benefits from treatment. Putting $100,000 speakers in an untreated room can turn them into a sub $500 audio experience.

 

[chesebert]

The room is almost always the limiting factor of speaker performance at the listening position. No speaker can overcome that. Repositioning speakers and/or the listening position may result in marginal improvement, but in most rooms leaves a lot of that speaker performance you paid for on the table.

Sitting closer to the speakers isn’t going to help with a bad room. In fact, it’s probably worse as the reflectioned sound takes even longer to reach the listener, becoming more obvious as the delays increase. Probably not doing the sound stage any favors either

I‘m consistently surprised by how many people spend tens of thousands of dollars on speakers but nothing on room treatments and corrective DSP. Literally every room benefits from treatment. Putting $100,000 speakers in an untreated room can turn them into a sub $500 audio experience.

You are right in theory but in practice it’s not like this at all. No one would put a pair of speakers in an empty room. By the time you have your furniture in, have your window treatments installed and your junk spread all over the place and put down a rug (if hard floor) you have a “treated” room. You are absolutely missing out if you think you need to buy “room treatment” to get quality output from your speakers.

Try it first. But don’t buy speakers that are too big for your room.

 

[bfreedma]

You are right in theory but in practice it’s not like this at all. No one would put a pair of speakers in an empty room. By the time you have your furniture in, have your window treatments installed and your junk spread all over the place and put down a rug (if hard floor) you have a “treated” room. You are absolutely missing out if you think you need to buy “room treatment” to get quality output from your speakers.

Try it first. But don’t buy speakers that are too big for your room.

I‘ve measured and acoustically treated dozens of rooms including my own, so have definitely tried it.

While some furniture randomly placed around the room MIGHT be better than nothing, it certainly won’t achieve the same results as actual treatments. People who choose not to properly treat their room are most definitely not getting the best out of their speakers. I understand that some people can’t put significant amounts of treatment into a mixed use room - for those situations, DSP based room correction is still far better than nothing.

Acoustics are far too complex to be best addressed solely by randomly placed objects in a room. in your example, the rug only covers 1 of the 6 surfaces where first reflections occur. The rug and furniture wont help the other 5 in a meaningful way

 

[iFi audio]

No need to make "room" a bigger issue than it actually is.

In most cases a room actually is the biggest issue due to the fact that one hears waves coming from speakers and those that bounce off walls and that often causes smearing and boom. Whether we like it or not, many of us hear what our speakers and rooms do together. Speakers without ports (dipoles, actives) are a nice way to partially overcome this, but still many don't allow us to sit close to them because of crippled imaging. Headphones are free from these issues.

Honestly you should ask AMR/iFi to send you to different shows that they participate in - you will realize how limiting headphones are (even the HE-1).

I've been to dozens of shows and I've experienced hundreds of rooms and that's why I consider headphones as far less problematic

 

[Ragnar-BY]

just sit closer to the speakers

It does not work like this.

First, all speakers have their “sweet spot” distance. High frequencies are attenuated by air and this attenuation grows and decreases with distance. Sitting too close or too far from speaker will lead to brighter or darker tonal balance. Also, phase matching of drivers in multi-driver (and this is 99.99% of models) speakers is tuned to certain distance. There are some speakers which allow to fine-tune crossover and/or phase, but these are rare cases (Focal Utopia, Wilson, et.c.) and this is exactly about fine-tuning, you can’t change things completely.

Secondly, the closer we are to the speakers, the closer in time the sound from driver and the first reflection will be, which is bad. Of course, there will be people whose speakers are placed so that they are closer to the listener than to the wall behind them, but in 99% this is not the case.

Room is the key to good sound from speakers. Simple things like carpets or bookcases help to some extent, but do not completely solve the problem.

P.S. Any sound reproduction is a compromise. Both headphones and speakers have their drawbacks. One is not better than the other, you just need to choose the set of disadvantages that interferes less with your enjoyment.

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

It does not work like this.

First, all speakers have their “sweet spot” distance. High frequencies are attenuated by air and this attenuation grows and decreases with distance. Sitting too close or too far from speaker will lead to brighter or darker tonal balance. Also, phase matching of drivers in multi-driver (and this is 99.99% of models) speakers is tuned to certain distance. There are some speakers which allow to fine-tune crossover and/or phase, but these are rare cases (Focal Utopia, Wilson, et.c.) and this is exactly about fine-tuning, you can’t change things completely.

Secondly, the closer we are to the speakers, the closer in time the sound from and the first reflection will be, which is bad. Of course, there will be people whose speakers are placed so that they are closer to the listener than to the wall behind them, but in 99% of cases this is not the case.

Room is the key to good sound from speakers. Simple things like carpets or bookcases help to some extent, but do not completely solve the problem.

P.S. Any sound reproduction is a compromise. Both headphones and speakers have their drawbacks. One is not better than the other, you just need to choose the set of disadvantages that interferes less with your enjoyment.

Also it's worth to mention that speakers and speakers amps have much more of distortion than headphone gear - even without room modes.
Especially speakers.

 

[chesebert]

This is what 911 owners must feel like in a bimmer bike forum

 

[ThanatosVI]

This is what 911 owners must feel like in a bimmer bike forum

Why would a 911 owner visit a bimmer bike forum tho

 

[chesebert]

Why would a 911 owner visit a bimmer bike forum tho

No clue - probably because the $8/gal gas price. But it’s obvious from the sentiment here that strapping 2 transducers right on your ears is the best way to listen to music and the way it was meant to be heard

 

[bfreedma]

No clue - probably because the $8/gal gas price. But it’s obvious from the sentiment here that strapping 2 transducers right on your ears is the best way to listen to music and the way it was meant to be heard

No one said that. Everyone posting on this except you acknowledges that both speakers and headphone have limitations and that neither is a perfect solution OOB.

For someone who is on the “speakers are better” side of the debate and who demonstrated such a seeming lack of knowledge regarding the impact of room acoustics, I’d be cautious throwing around insults…

 

[chesebert]

No one said that. Everyone posting on this except you acknowledges that both speakers and headphone have limitations and that neither is a perfect solution OOB.

For someone who is on the “speakers are better” side of the debate and who demonstrated such a seeming lack of knowledge regarding the impact of room acoustics, I’d be cautious throwing around insults…

No one is saying room acoustics is not a material factor in speaker performance but some are hiding behind “need perfect room and loads of room treatment” to make the argument that headphones are better at assessing dac performance due to lack of room acoustics interaction.