[bfreedma]

I imagine, but do you think that such presence has any impact of folks here?

Yes. The amount of "buy the shiny new object" that happens here is painfully obvious. So many FOTM electronics which turn into FOMO purchases based on marketing claims.

Why else would so many companies have reps that post here?...

 

[paradoxper]

I imagine, but do you think that such presence has any impact of folks here?

Bah. I guess you don't recall A&K and those ill Guru BS site being taken by a 15 year old kid.
And if ain't shilling, it's stupidity. How many were duped by the gainclone that was Ray Samuels Dark Star.

It's always happening.

 

[iFi audio]

So many FOTM electronics which turn into FOMO purchases based on marketing claims.

From what I can tell, most popular products here on HF become popular primarily due to the positive feedback they get from folks exposed to them. That's only my experience of course, but I've been seeing primarily that collective content to be honest.

Why else would so many companies have reps that post here?...

I can't speak for other reps, but i.e. my job here is to answer questions related to our products, gather feedback about them, socialize with the community and in general be helpful wherever I can.

It's always happening.

I'm not saying that this doesn't happen. It probably happens on every popular forum also way outside of audio. But my original question was about the scale of funky stuff versus real impressions created by legit users who just share the experience after getting this or that product.

 

[bfreedma]

From what I can tell, most popular products here on HF become popular primarily due to the positive feedback they get from folks exposed to them. That's only my experience of course, but I've been seeing primarily that collective content to be honest.

And how does this process start? Almost always with marketing hyperbole that gets the early adopters on board and which they then repeat as gospel.

"Look at this new fancy Amp/DAC/DAP we are releasing. It sounds better because the case is made of plutonium and we've gone from a noise floor of -132db to -132.5 db"

 

[ThanatosVI]

And how does this process start? Almost always with marketing hyperbole that gets the early adopters on board and which they then repeat as gospel.

"Look at this new fancy Amp/DAC/DAP we are releasing. It sounds better because the case is made of plutonium and we've gone from a noise floor of -132db to -132.5 db"

Plutonium case, best case!

 

[iFi audio]

And how does this process start? Almost always with marketing hyperbole that gets the early adopters on board and which they then repeat as gospel.

"Look at this new fancy Amp/DAC/DAP we are releasing. It sounds better because the case is made of plutonium and we've gone from a noise floor of -132db to -132.5 db"

Marketing is a part of that of course and we start our product threads via our official press releases in Head-fi's sponsored section, but what happens from there is beyond our control; whether these threads evolve, move outside that sub-forum or die. Users decide what they want to discuss and how and I think that these discussions determine what's popular and what's not. Also, many of you folks have very strong filters particularly sensitive to marketing, so you're far from being defenseless

 

[bfreedma]

Marketing is a part of that of course and we start our product threads via our official press releases in Head-fi's sponsored section, but what happens from there is beyond our control; whether these threads evolve, move outside that sub-forum or die. Users decide what they want to discuss and how and I think that these discussions determine what's popular and what's not. Also, many of you folks have very strong filters particularly sensitive to marketing, so you're far from being defenseless

If Marketing didn't work well past how you're describing it above, you (or any company) wouldn't pay so much for marketing staff and advertising.

I find your figurative "walking away" from any responsibility for obtuse and misinterpreted marketing material once published more than a bit unfortunate. Perhaps the better answer is more honest and specific marketing that doesn't encourage the less technical to run with what seem to be important performance claims that are, in fact, completely inaudible.

As to the "strong filters" you state are possessed by Head-Fi members, I'd suggest that less than 10% of the membership actually has them, let alone the technical background to differentiate audible performance elements vs. marketing of inaudible product elements.

Look, I get it - vendors need to keep selling products and that's hard without the perception of significant improvement. I just wish vendors would be a little more up front when generating their marketing material and associated performance claims.

 

[iFi audio]

If Marketing didn't work well past how you're describing it above, you (or any company) wouldn't pay so much for marketing staff and advertising.

As per my post above, a press release is a conversation starter that highlights a product's features, but whether that conversation lasts for 10, 20 or 1000 pages is up to you. As much as we'd like every single one to grow, some won't for various reasons and... that's also fine. My point is that not everything always works in our favor and that's normal, but out of respect we support this site even if it doesn't. It helped us to grow after all, so supporting it is natural.

I find your figurative "walking away" from any responsibility for obtuse and misinterpreted marketing material once published more than a bit unfortunate.

I didn't say that we're walking away, on the contrary. We are always there to answer questions, interact etc., but users decide whether they want to ask these questions and take interest into products we make. That's different

Besides, you'd have to be more specific about those 'obtuse and misinterpreted' bits, but not here

Perhaps the better answer is more honest and specific marketing that doesn't encourage the less technical to run with what seem to be important performance claims that are, in fact, completely inaudible.

Whether a PR release floats one's boat or not and what should/shouldn't be there is a broad subject. Better not to discuss it here to not derail this thread, but I'm more than happy to follow via PMs if you like.

I'd suggest that less than 10% of the membership actually has them, let alone the technical background to differentiate audible performance elements vs. marketing of inaudible product elements.

Around these parts individuals from that 10% group can be and often are very vocal, and I think that newcomers see that side of the coin too

I just wish vendors would be a little more up front when generating their marketing material and associated performance claims.

I hear you and I understand the general message, but it begs for going into specific claims that aren't true and I'd keep away from that here. If you have any critique about products we make, by all means we can via PM

Thanks for a nice conversation btw.

 

[bfreedma]

As per my post above, a press release is a conversation starter that highlights a product's features, but whether that conversation lasts for 10, 20 or 1000 pages is up to you. As much as we'd like every single one to grow, some won't for various reasons and... that's also fine. My point is that not everything always works in our favor and that's normal, but out of respect we support this site even if it doesn't. It helped us to grow after all, so supporting it is natural.



I didn't say that we're walking away, on the contrary. We are always there to answer questions, interact etc., but users decide whether they want to ask these questions and take interest into products we make. That's different

Besides, you'd have to be more specific about those 'obtuse and misinterpreted' bits, but not here



Whether a PR release floats one's boat or not and what should/shouldn't be there is a broad subject. Better not to discuss it here to not derail this thread, but I'm more than happy to follow via PMs if you like.



Around these parts individuals from that 10% group can be and often are very vocal, and I think that newcomers see that side of the coin too



I hear you and I understand the general message, but it begs for going into specific claims that aren't true and I'd keep away from that here. If you have any critique about products we make, by all means we can via PM

Thanks for a nice conversation btw.

Appreciate the responses, though I do think companies have more responsibility around marketing claims being more specific about audibility and less about showing numbers/ratios that we know less technical readers are likely to misinterpret. Obviously, there are levels to this and I'm more concerned with the obvious misdirection produced where the physics and standards are well established (cables, Ethernet switches, etc.) than standard advertising models of putting a positive spin on a product.

Just want to be clear that I'm not suggesting iFi is doing anything unusual or specifically misleading, just discussing your posts and the market in general.

 

[chesebert]

I think it's beneficial for MoT to participate but solely to answer questions and resolve issues. I don't think it's appropriate for MoT to participate in any discussion with non-MoT members on benefits or drawbacks of any equipment whether or not those of the MoT. If MoT wants to put together some best system matching guide, they should do that in a separate marketing forum and pay Headfi for the privilege.

MoT aside, I am more worried about these shills that likely got some discount or other arrangement with the dealer/manufacturer to promote some products. For example Holo Audio is just a single person - Jeff, and their US dealer is just a single person. There is no f#$# way they can get their stuff mentioned everywhere without some shills. There is no way to track these shills and they lurk among the non-MoT members making suggestions and giving rave reviews and congratulating people for buying things...etc. Headfi needs to do a better job identifying these people and get the company to pay for the marketing costs that every other MoT is paying for the privilege of engaging with the community.

The third group that is pushing FOTM includes those who got hoodwinked into buying something expensive by the MoT or shills and are now regretting their decision and trying to pump up the market so they can resell at a good price due to strong demand.

Other than MoT, not sure how to solve the other issues.

 

[bfreedma]

I think it's beneficial for MoT to participate but solely to answer questions and resolve issues. I don't think it's appropriate for MoT to participate in any discussion with non-MoT members on benefits or drawbacks of any equipment whether or not those of the MoT. If MoT wants to put together some best system matching guide, they should do that in a separate marketing forum and pay Headfi for the privilege.

MoT aside, I am more worried about these shills that likely got some discount or other arrangement with the dealer/manufacturer to promote some products. For example Holo Audio is just a single person - Jeff, and their US dealer is just a single person. There is no f#$# way they can get their stuff mentioned everywhere without some shills. There is no way to track these shills and they lurk among the non-MoT members making suggestions and giving rave reviews and congratulating people for buying things...etc. Headfi needs to do a better job identifying these people and get the company to pay for the marketing costs that every other MoT is paying for the privilege of engaging with the community.

The third group that is pushing FOTM includes those who got hoodwinked into buying something expensive by the MoT or shills and are now regretting their decision and trying to pump up the market so they can resell at a good price due to strong demand.

Other than MoT, not sure how to solve the other issues.

i don’t think the problem is that hard to solve as, IMO, only two changes are needed. Unfortunately, the most important change requires self education and most consumers won’t put aside their current views and invest a few days in learning the basics.

Add a simple truth in advertising law that requires manufacturers to provide objective evidence to support specific objective performance claims and the problem is largely solved.

Not waiting up nights for this to happen, though advertising regulation is starting to have impact in the UK/Europe. The Chord company (cable manu, not the electronics company) was issued a cease and desist order in the UK for unsupported claims about their cables.

 

[tutetibiimperes]

I think it's beneficial for MoT to participate but solely to answer questions and resolve issues. I don't think it's appropriate for MoT to participate in any discussion with non-MoT members on benefits or drawbacks of any equipment whether or not those of the MoT. If MoT wants to put together some best system matching guide, they should do that in a separate marketing forum and pay Headfi for the privilege.

MoT aside, I am more worried about these shills that likely got some discount or other arrangement with the dealer/manufacturer to promote some products. For example Holo Audio is just a single person - Jeff, and their US dealer is just a single person. There is no f#$# way they can get their stuff mentioned everywhere without some shills. There is no way to track these shills and they lurk among the non-MoT members making suggestions and giving rave reviews and congratulating people for buying things...etc. Headfi needs to do a better job identifying these people and get the company to pay for the marketing costs that every other MoT is paying for the privilege of engaging with the community.

The third group that is pushing FOTM includes those who got hoodwinked into buying something expensive by the MoT or shills and are now regretting their decision and trying to pump up the market so they can resell at a good price due to strong demand.

Other than MoT, not sure how to solve the other issues.

I don’t have a problem with MoT contributing to discussions regarding their own products. It’s often beneficial to be able to ‘pick the brain’ when it comes to smaller companies where the designers actually participate, and to get issues resolved when it comes to larger companies.

In terms of Holo, I became aware of them when someone measured one of their DACs on ASR and it got a lot of attention as one of the few R2R DACs that measures well. Way out of my price range for a DAC, but I do admire what they were able to do.

 

[penguinofsleep2]

I have a bit of a hard time following your reasoning here. But if I understood you correctly and what you describes is more about how good synergy there is between the DAC and the rest of the audio system than that many DACs that sound good with 2ch do not sound as good with headphones and vice versa.

MSB and Nagra make some of the best DACs in the world but no DAC, no matter how good it is, can make up for the rest of the system, bad rooms acoustics or wrong speaker setup.

Absolutely no reasoning or absolute belief one way or another here. It's just a list of my experiences (which can be summed up as sometimes different and sometimes same, sometimes good and sometimes bad) and observations with an initial paragraph explaining how "poorly conducted" my listening experiences would be from a scientific standpoint but how I do try to separate out "what is the DAC" vs "what is the other stuff".

And yes, MSB and Nagra do make good DACs on an absolute scale and yes other factors mentioned make a big difference. But IMO they're just not great for the price and this is already taking diminishing returns into account. That or maybe I'm too poor.

 

[Ragnar-BY]

My theory and guess would be perhaps in the headphone world, having too nice of a DAC would be pointless since our headphones are not capable to resolve at the DACS capabilities?

I would say it’s quite the opposite. Majority of 2ch systems are not playing well enough to clearly show all the difference between DACs.

I saw many speaker systems, but almost all of them either could not reproduce the entire frequency range (small 6.5-8 inch woofer without a subwoofer), or stood in an untreated room, where the reflections distorted the sound noticeably. And most often I see systems with both problems together.

Speakers almost always sound more impressive, but less resolving. I think that’s the reason why 2ch guys are less picky when it comes to DACs.

 

[chesebert]

I would say it’s quite the opposite. Majority of 2ch systems are not playing well enough to clearly show all the difference between DACs.

I saw many speaker systems, but almost all of them either could not reproduce the entire frequency range (small 6.5-8 inch woofer without a subwoofer), or stood in an untreated room, where the reflections distorted the sound noticeably. And most often I see systems with both problems together.

Speakers almost always sound more impressive, but less resolving. I think that’s the reason why 2ch guys are less picky when it comes to DACs.

My experience is like 180 degree from yours. Much easier to identify and appreciate better dacs over speakers than headphones. headphones are really midfi equipment no matter how much money you dump into it.