Why are flagship headphones so expensive now?
Jan 8, 2017 at 2:06 AM Post #166 of 423
 
The instruments using the DT880 sound like they are located around my head just a few inches away. With the HF5, the instruments are all in my head. 

Funny, but after a few years of listening to music via headphones almost exclusively, I have lost the sensation that the music is "all in my head".
 
Back when I listened to both loudspeakers and headphones on a regular basis, headphone listening did seem to me to be a much more "compromised" thing. And it is true that headphone listening certainly involves "compromise", but I've learned that certain types of compromise can actually free the mind rather than constrict it. 
 
Because nowadays (after have grown more used to "headphone sound"), the illusion of space provided by my headphones is limited to a large degree by my own imagination. In this way, "headstage" has actually surpassed "soundstage" in it's ability to suggest spatial reality.
 
Go figure...
 
Jan 8, 2017 at 4:03 AM Post #167 of 423
^^^that makes perfect sense to me. I as said in an earlier post - Sennheiser have brainwashed me! 
 
Another point worth mentioning. The only way that I could get to experience the 'uncompromised' sound using speakers would be to spend many thousands of pounds. I would also need to doctor my living space to cater for a more ideal listening space. Many compromises would have to be made including getting rid of my wife hahaha
 
Now place a set of HD800 on your head plugged into a modest set up. Put a quality orchestral recording on - sit back, close your eyes. 
 
No compromises there. 
 
Jan 8, 2017 at 4:50 AM Post #168 of 423
"No compromises there." 

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that.
 
Audio reproduction (loudspeaker or headphone) is (or may be) about the "recreation of a sonic event", but it is also about "suspension of disbelief".
 
How funny is this?
 
We all know that we are not listening to the real thing but it does not matter as long as we are given sufficient mental fodder! Different people may need different types and levels of fodder in order to indulge themselves sufficiently, but let none of us fool ourselves.
 
We are all just children playing in the sandbox.
 
Jan 8, 2017 at 5:10 AM Post #169 of 423
  Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that.
 
Audio reproduction (loudspeaker or headphone) is (or may be) about the "recreation of a sonic event", but it is also about "suspension of disbelief".
 
How funny is this?
 
We all know that we are not listening to the real thing but it does not matter as long as we are given sufficient mental fodder! Different people may need different types and levels of fodder in order to indulge themselves sufficiently, but let none of us fool ourselves.
 
We are all just children playing in the sandbox.

I know what you are saying.. and yes you're point has its relevance. But still to bang on about my original point; a recording is a recording. Thats what it is. It is not a live concert. It may be a recording of a live concert? But it is still only a recording. We know this. Its not kidding anyone..
 
Now how we choose to listen to this recording is up to us. If we choose to use headphones and will only ever use headphones - All other methods lose relevance. 
 
When I shut my eyes and listen to the marvel that are modern high end headphones - I'm wowed - suspended in belief! I'm hearing the recording in the best way (I think) possible. If there are compromises - I'm unaware of them. 
 
Jan 8, 2017 at 11:07 AM Post #170 of 423
 
Now how we choose to listen to this recording is up to us. If we choose to use headphones and will only ever use headphones - All other methods lose relevance. 

 
 

I acknowledge that you read and understand what I'm saying, regardless of how we might disagree on certain points. You are certainly free to disagree and you are certainly free to make a recording into whatever you'd like to be. You own the recording, it's yours to do with as you will.
 
But the fact remains that there are *intentions* involved in the making of certain recordings. The fuss and the trouble that some recording engineers go to while setting up microphone arrays at live concert events are for good reason, at least in the minds of some recording engineers. The entire GOAL is to bring the live concert experience to the listener of the recording, as much as possible.
 
And In order to realize the intended goals of certain recordings, we need to play them in the manner in which they were designed to be played. Especially with acoustic classical recordings, the ideal manner of playback is often assumed to be an array of loudspeakers. By design, the typical headphone system will indeed "compromise" the intended effects of the recording style.
 
Once again, you are free to do with any recording as you wish but don't let your personal preferences obscure the integrity of concrete facts.
 
The point remains, there is such a thing as an "optimal" playback method for certain recordings. And vice-versa, there is also such a thing as a compromised" method of playback - at least for certain recordings.
 
Sure, some recordings are made in ways that make the playback method truly "irrelevant" (as you might say), but this is definitely NOT always the case...  
 
Sometimes the truth is simple and clear, sometimes not. But when it is simple and clear let's respect it for what it is. And let's show some respect for the hard work that some recording engineers put into their recordings, and for the intentions of certain composers and musicians whose wishes might be that we would (ideally) hear a piece of music played back IN A CERTAIN WAY.
 
I think that everyone should strive to acquire a decent loudspeaker setup, as space and finances allow. Loudspeakers remain the only way to honor the wishes of certain composers, musicians, and engineers! And I don't think that loudspeakers are going away anytime soon, because the loudspeaker experience is unique, visceral, and lifelike in ways that headphones cannot be. Recordings will continue to be made with the assumption that conscientious listeners will do everything in their power to hear them in the "optimal" way, as they were intended to be heard.
 
Jan 8, 2017 at 12:12 PM Post #171 of 423
Its all about the music for me. Not the recreating of a live experience. I don't need that to enjoy the notes of a Bach prelude. I've never disputed that certain recordings where/are designed with high end speaker set up's in mind. I also stated this as 'fact' as well. 
 
I think you need to wind your neck in a little haha 
beerchug.gif

 
Jan 8, 2017 at 12:14 PM Post #172 of 423
A little late to the thread, but IMO stuff in general is getting much more expensive because marketing folks are smart enough to get people to pay the inflated prices to join an exclusive "club" of sorts -- let's call it the Society of Haughty Individual Tastes. Phones are one example -- why else would a OnePlus3 cost half what a GS7 or Pixel does? Pretty much the same hardware and build quality. The iPhone, of course, is the ultimate piece of marketing genius, beloved by all the iSheep out there. Just look at the data on how much profit Apple makes per phone and it's clear how much of a marketing premium people are paying. 
 
Frankly I find the idea of $1K+ headphones somewhat laughable [... puts on flame-proof suit...] and the idea that $500 headphones are "mid-fi" equally amusing. I guess to a very small set of folks with money to burn it all makes perfect sense, but probably not for the other 99.9% of consumers who could, for example, find much better uses for $4K than plonking it down for a pair of French-made dynamic-driver headphones. 
 
Jan 8, 2017 at 12:57 PM Post #174 of 423
  Its all about the music for me. Not the recreating of a live experience. 

Sure, you can say that but...
 
But then I'd ask the question:" Why bother to listen to decent recordings on a high-end headphones if it really is "all about the music"? Why not simply buy some cheap earbuds or a $20 tabletop radio, get some crappy recordings, and "enjoy the music"? Maybe this is what you actually do, but somehow I doubt it.
 
Decent recordings and decent gear provide you with the capability to enjoy the music MORE THOROUGHLY than you would otherwise might do. "Fidelity" does matter in musical enjoyment. And part of the equation in "fidelity" is listening to recordings in an optimal manner. 
 
You can only enjoy what you can actually hear, if "hearing" really is what you are claiming to be interested in. The more you hear, the more you can enjoy. And if you're not hearing everything in the way that it is meant to be heard, you are not "enjoying" a recording to the max. And so I'd ask again, "Why bother with decent stuff unless you really do want to hear what the MUSIC on a recording has to offer?"
 
I am certainly not implying that you do not enjoy the sound you're hearing. But it might be worthwhile to step outside of the confines of your imagination every once in a while so that you might enjoy things as they were meant to be heard, because doing so can only increase the level of your "musical enjoyment" - at least in certain ways.
 
My hope is that recording and playback tech will continue to catch up to the growing trend. Headphone listening is the growing trend but record labels
and others seem not to have caught on to the fact that there is still much to be done if we are to continue along the path of "optimal music enjoyment", or "hifi" as it was once called...
 
Jan 8, 2017 at 2:11 PM Post #175 of 423
 
concrete facts!
eek.gif
 that is funny! Pseudo...
wink.gif
 

Well (at least for me), "concrete facts" do factor into my "musical enjoyment".
 
Part of the reason why I am able to enjoy the kinds of recordings that I like using headphones rather than speakers? My listening experience supplies me with knowledge of what that kind of music actually sounds like. Headphones don't always supply the needed information when I'm listening to conventional recordings but my knowledge of what live music and loudspeaker hifi sounds like enables me to "fill in the dots" satisfactorily, so that my musical enjoyment becomes as complete as possible in the compromised (headphone fi) circumstance.
 
Too many people today have little or no idea of what live music actually sounds like, or of what recordings designed to sound "right" when played back on an array of loudspeakers actually sound like when played back that way. Having a good reference actually can increase "musical enjoyment" when listening to headphones (believe it or not!) but unless one knows about some of the "concrete facts" behind the phenomena called "record playback", one might not ever realize how much enjoyment one has been missing out on...
 
Jan 8, 2017 at 7:48 PM Post #176 of 423
  Well (at least for me), "concrete facts" do factor into my "musical enjoyment".
 
Part of the reason why I am able to enjoy the kinds of recordings that I like using headphones rather than speakers? My listening experience supplies me with knowledge of what that kind of music actually sounds like. Headphones don't always supply the needed information when I'm listening to conventional recordings but my knowledge of what live music and loudspeaker hifi sounds like enables me to "fill in the dots" satisfactorily, so that my musical enjoyment becomes as complete as possible in the compromised (headphone fi) circumstance.

And in real life, music comes from outside the head...whereas headphones generate sound inside the head..
 
go figure
wink.gif

 
Jan 8, 2017 at 8:25 PM Post #177 of 423
 
No matter how hard you try, headphones are no match to speakers for this particular reason.

Usually, but not necessarily true. The times they are a changin'.
 
The Smyth Realiser A8 (can be used in two-channel or multi-channel mode and with headphones of your own choosing) is said to do a pretty damn good job of mimicking a real array of loudspeakers. A pair of excellent soundstagers (like the HD-800s for example) mated with the Realiser would probably have some of us flailing our arms in disbelief!
 
As I've said earlier in this thread, having listened to little else besides standard headphone/amp combos over the last few years, my imaginary powers have increased. Sometimes I forget that I am listening to headphones, but that is partly because my brain circuitry has learned to compensate somewhat. And I think that my brain has learned to compensate for the lack of actual spatial cues BECAUSE I am so familiar with the way that real loudspeakers sound (it's all locked into my memory from years of experience).
 
For those who do not have the space or the financial means to assemble a good loudspeaker system, I therefore highly recommend the Smyth Realiser A8 as the next best thing. Get to know what sound "outside of your head" sounds like and it will benefit your "standard" style headphone listening over the long run... Or, so says my theory on the matter.
 
Jan 8, 2017 at 9:23 PM Post #178 of 423
Michael G. said:
 
Sometimes the truth is simple and clear, sometimes not. But when it is simple and clear let's respect it for what it is. And let's show some respect for the hard work that some recording engineers put into their recordings, and for the intentions of certain composers and musicians whose wishes might be that we would (ideally) hear a piece of music played back IN A CERTAIN WAY.
 
I think that everyone should strive to acquire a decent loudspeaker setup, as space and finances allow. Loudspeakers remain the only way to honor the wishes of certain composers, musicians, and engineers! And I don't think that loudspeakers are going away anytime soon, because the loudspeaker experience is unique, visceral, and lifelike in ways that headphones cannot be. Recordings will continue to be made with the assumption that conscientious listeners will do everything in their power to hear them in the "optimal" way, as they were intended to be heard.

Many musicians use headphones so loudspeakers aren't the only way of honoring their music and if we were all meant to hear sound the same way we wouldn't have different preferences to it or EQ's.
 
I see what your saying about using loudspeakers when possible but most of my music listening is done with a sony ps vita these days and a pair of beats earphones and bluetooth speaker 
 
Jan 8, 2017 at 9:35 PM Post #179 of 423
 
Now how we choose to listen to this recording is up to us. If we choose to use headphones and will only ever use headphones - All other methods lose relevance. 
 

 
Sure, and how you choose to cook food is up to you. If you are happy with a microwave and will only ever use one, all other methods lose relevance.
 
Jan 9, 2017 at 2:57 AM Post #180 of 423
   
Sure, and how you choose to cook food is up to you. If you are happy with a microwave and will only ever use one, all other methods lose relevance.

Hey if you want to compare Sennheiser flagships to microwaves. And speakers to erm... A cooker? Thats your prerogative haha   
 

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