Who uses Crossfeed?
Mar 12, 2006 at 5:38 PM Post #76 of 100
Just did a quick listening test with headplug plug in in winamp, crossfeed can hardly be heard in "balanced" recordings, but it really eases this "ear pressure feeling" on unbalanced recordings here most sound comes from one channel. On those recording the difference is very clear, soundstage is pushed forward and the "impact" of instruments is lower.
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 6:04 PM Post #77 of 100
BTW-for a historical point of reference from my "mental archives" the very first mutlichannel "surround" type system was a combined effort of MIT/sound associates/Acoustic Research (from memory folks so may not be exact !)

It consisted of 16 channels per side (!!!!!!
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) plus main stereo pair with each two pair set having a preselected digital delay and high frequency attenuation that simulated that position in the "artificial concert hall".
this event was reported on by all the major electronics and audio magazines of the time and even popular mechanics if memory serves,with a promise of a "simplified" consumer version to be announced soon.

This consumer adaptation was the Audiopulse model 1 Digital Audio Delay Line.

rather than even attempt to convince the public they needed a total of 18 loudspeakers this new device instead used a tapped digital delay line for the additional channels and crossfed the signal from the left delay output to the right channel delay line input and visa versa.
The "taps" were discrete amounts of the overall selscted delay which could be from 50 ms which meant an acoustic path of 50 feet to 200 ms (200ft).
the main selling point was you only needed to add another stereo amplifier and two more loudspeakers to use this new device and with Quadraphonics being a relatively recent failure most already had these banging around the house (well most audio geeks anyway
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In addition there were low pass filters to simulate the rate of high end attenuation that would take place in a concert hall as the sound would travel a distance,the known rate of attenuation found in any pro sound manual and used for audience coverage when setting up for a lrge arena so there are no dead spots.

anyway...

the combination of crossfed signal,discrete taps along the delay to simulate the former 16 actual speakers (now down to 8 per side taps from memory) and the filters when recycled to the input of the other channel produced the effect of sound decay and reinforced treble attentuation so each pass would be lower in level and because it was being filtered again and again and agian would have less treeble each time until the signal finally fell below the limits of audibility.

And it was expensive in the "real dollars" of the time so audiopulse came out with a model 2 that was less sophisticated,had easier to use controls,included a rear channel power amp of 25 WPC (pamp front end,discrete output stage) and something called a "2-CH Mix" which in reality was a line level output that mixed the main left and right stereo signal which formerly was not touched by this new box (straight stereo fronts,delayed rears) with the output of the delay channels and some of us looked at this and right away ran for our headphones !

Hell yes it was cool ! cool as it comes yet eventually when the novelty wore off it was back to two channel stereo for most listening.It just sounded WRONG even though it sounded cool for most music.there was an esception though.Live Recordings !

Like with the passive Hafler Dynaquad circuit if there was already content accidently prerecorded on the disc,a natural L-R signal picked up by the microphones after travelling to the side and back walls,bouncing off then phase reversed going back to the open mics,this device like the hafler device reproduced it !

This was/is no gimmick because nothing not already there was added to the sound but only signals already present and previously hidden could be extracted and combined with the raw stereo signal for a more realistic holographic experience !

Other manufacturers seeing the potentials and the success of the two Audiopulse devices just HAD TO come out with their own versions but this being high end audio were not happy enough to copy a good idea and instead had to "improve" on it with the results of totally screwing it up and making the entire class of audio add-on device gain a reputation as something that sounded FAKE ! That they did motre harm than good and they all dissapeared never to be seen again and joined Quad on the audio trash pile of good ideas gone bad.(I still have ay model 2 aftr all these years and you will have to pry it from my cold dead hands before i give it up willingly
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So we had Dynaquad,matrixed quadraphonics,discrete tape and CD-4 phono discret quad,then the ambience recovery devices such as the audiopulse which some idiot decided to mutate into ambience simulation devices with disastrous results for them all and in the end to the trash heap !

Then Dolby Surround comes along,shortens the delay time.adds a center dialog channel to lock voices to the TV screen and instead of aiming it at audiophiles and music instead targeted the living room and the TV set !

Genious ! It worked and the entire family was for the first time able to take part in the new "toys" because everyone loves the movies !


It worked because it was targeted to a proper use and that did not and does not include artificial music FX but did the industry learn anything by both the failures and the only success story ?

HELL NO !

they are still trying get us us to buy into music surround even though all the evidence says we are no buying in unless FORCED to by having no other choice (see my above post
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So what does this have to do with headphone crossfeed networks ?

Nothing and why the DSP angle is a wrong headed one.It will not be simply an attempt to make the headphones resemble the loudspeaker experience (as the present technology does) but as those touting the DSP path have said will be BETTER !


and that is why it will fail............and always has.......
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Mar 12, 2006 at 7:18 PM Post #78 of 100
Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42
So what does this have to do with headphone crossfeed networks ?

Nothing and why the DSP angle is a wrong headed one.It will not be simply an attempt to make the headphones resemble the loudspeaker experience (as the present technology does) but as those touting the DSP path have said will be BETTER !

and that is why it will fail............and always has.......
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So, let me get this right: You're saying DSP HRTF will fail because idiot mass market companies will try to do more than just correct the problem at hand and go on to "improve" headphone sound?

If that's what you're saying I'll buy it. Because when we do DSP HRTF we're going to be light handed and just try to make headphones sound more like two speakers. And I would contend that we should be able to do better than our analog crossfeed implementation.
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 8:15 PM Post #79 of 100
Quote:

So, let me get this right: You're saying DSP HRTF will fail because idiot mass market companies will try to do more than just correct the problem at hand and go on to "improve" headphone sound?


Totally.Good enough is never that and I have seen many great dieas go bad strictly on how it was implemented or even because the marketing was deceptive instead of coming clean and spelling out exactly what the goals were and are.The "better than anything you have ever heard" crap.

My attitude to hype and a good amount of ad copy is "don't piss on my leg,tell me it is raining and expect me to fall for it"
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Quote:

Because when we do DSP HRTF we're going to be light handed and just try to make headphones sound more like two speakers


My opinion for what it is worth as a simple hobbyist is lighthanded is to do the job in a manner as unobtrusive as can be done is the only correct way.
But as this current and other threads have shown through various posts (I can change everything ! Muahahahahahahahahah !) will not be the reality in most cases.Some want and need complicated to justify the cost of research then the buying of the product itself means add-ins because a simple in-out switch means you can't charge the price of a small farm.

The postion you are in with even your present incarnation of the crossfeed network is as an add-in that you provide to set your products apart from the crowd (among other things
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) but is not a feature product by itself and likely could not be without a panel loaded with user controls just to sell and turn a profit.
I could be off base on this but is what I beleive to be true.

your current product choices to move into the digital realm and go forward with the times (as with your current lineup amp "face lift" and digital/analog amp inputs) means in the case of Headroom it makes perfect sense to replace the same thing you already have built in place with an updated version since your cost will likely remain static or at worst mean a small bump up.

But beware Tyll,the temptation is alwys there to "maybe we can aslo add this feature or maybe a .....and the xxx is a pretty cool thing and..." when the DSP is pure coding and what goes into the strings of data adds no additional cost to the initial chip oder/DSP programming panel price
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Mar 13, 2006 at 12:02 AM Post #80 of 100
Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42
But beware Tyll,the temptation is alwys there to "maybe we can aslo add this feature or maybe a .....and the xxx is a pretty cool thing and..." when the DSP is pure coding and what goes into the strings of data adds no additional cost to the initial chip oder/DSP programming panel price
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Hey, maybe we can do like Dolby Headphone and give three sizes of rooms to listen in but, also add the ability to choose a different venue, Carnegie Hall maybe? And then........
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Mar 13, 2006 at 1:22 AM Post #82 of 100
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamey
Hey, maybe we can do like Dolby Headphone and give three sizes of rooms to listen in but, also add the ability to choose a different venue, Carnegie Hall maybe? And then........
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I could provide a self programmed reverb algorithm for your project.It makes any headphones sound like an old mono transistor within a bathroom.
It would make your new line of amps unique, and you could get it cheap.
I would trade it for one of your Max Balanced amps.
 
Mar 13, 2006 at 1:31 AM Post #84 of 100
Jesus, I ask who uses crossfeed and start a 6 page thread.
I'm going to use crossfeed, I just don't know which version to build. I thin I need to reread this thread.
 
Mar 13, 2006 at 2:16 AM Post #85 of 100
Quote:

Jesus, I ask who uses crossfeed and start a 6 page thread.
I'm going to use crossfeed, I just don't know which version to build. I thin I need to reread this thread.


Build them all then toss the ones you don't need to a another member so that person too can do some real time evals.
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Since all the readily available plans are for 100% passive devices you could consider making a test-bed type chassis with the jacks and In/Out switch,maybe using a barrier strip type of connector for all,then plug the modules into the "loop" and do your evalautions.None of the filters should cost more than $10 once the jacks,switching and chassis are taken out of the overall cost equation.

The trick really is not to make a snap judgement call but to evaluate over time using varied styles of music.
Usually it is the subtle and barely noticed that will grow on a person over time and when gone missed while the one that jumps out at you and seems to actually be doing something is by the nature of it being so dominant the one you will walk away from unless it fixes a particular style of recording technique (old panned mono stero recording).

If adjustability is you way then either one of the two switched network Meier X-Feeds (natural or natural bass "linkwitz" style),the two position switched Chu Moy Linkwitz variant or even the variant on the headwize library with a continuous blend contolr (or maybe your own combo of the above).

Then there is the Meier Cross-1.Also passive,multiposition X-feed selction and "tuning" to enable dialling in the network with various input or output loads as a kinda sorta "EQ" much like the filter slector available in some networks.The kit is actually reasonable for what it does and the plans are available from Jan's site for any to copy as a perf board or strip board version.

Likely the most flexable all else being equal,not that it ever is
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Mar 13, 2006 at 5:01 AM Post #86 of 100
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamey
Hey, maybe we can do like Dolby Headphone and give three sizes of rooms to listen in but, also add the ability to choose a different venue, Carnegie Hall maybe? And then........
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OTOH, my list of wants from the new digital crossfeed:

1. Specific seat choice so I can decide just where in Carnegie Hall I want to sit. "Sniffles, grunts and stomach noises from over-perfumed self-important matron sitting next to you" option for enhanced reality.

2. Atrocious sounding stadium venues for reliving rock concerts. Include a 'bad drug' option for those wanting a safer trip down memory lane. Should be user controllable for setting how high above the stage you want to be suspended before starting perceived freefall to fiery death.

3. A button that fixes the way a head cold plugs up your ears.

4. One marked "Orpheus" that does digitally what I'll never be able to do financially.

I'll come up with more as you refine the technology...
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Mar 13, 2006 at 7:41 PM Post #87 of 100
Quote:

Originally Posted by Beauregard
OTOH, my list of wants from the new digital crossfeed:

1. Specific seat choice so I can decide just where in Carnegie Hall I want to sit. "Sniffles, grunts and stomach noises from over-perfumed self-important matron sitting next to you" option for enhanced reality.

2. Atrocious sounding stadium venues for reliving rock concerts. Include a 'bad drug' option for those wanting a safer trip down memory lane. Should be user controllable for setting how high above the stage you want to be suspended before starting perceived freefall to fiery death.

3. A button that fixes the way a head cold plugs up your ears.

4. One marked "Orpheus" that does digitally what I'll never be able to do financially.

I'll come up with more as you refine the technology...
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I'll take it right now!
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Mar 13, 2006 at 9:29 PM Post #88 of 100
For a brief moment I was using crossfeed but I could not tell a huge difference. I used it with the porta corda II so I was left wondering whether it was I who couldn't tell the difference or if it was my amp.
 
Mar 13, 2006 at 9:44 PM Post #89 of 100
Quote:

For a brief moment I was using crossfeed but I could not tell a huge difference.


which means it is working correctly.

Working incorrectly would mean easily heard and if it was, more a special effect-NOT a fix.

Kinda like cranking the bass to +15dB when all you really needed was a mild 2dB hump at 100hz.Spectactular yes.but also way wrong and that person should have their Head-fi membership card revoked
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