[Boneez]

I EQ *very* seldomly, and when I do, it is for my home (read: speaker) setup - never for the headphones. My preamp may be old (see my avatar), but it comes with some of the most conservative yet intelligently-designed tone adjustments I have ever seen on any piece of audio gear ever, and (as they should be), I only use them to compensate for failings in my room if need be.
 
Realistically, my speakers are point source, dipole and have no crossover to speak of - much like a pair of headphones. Most of what most people love about headphones, when you get down to it, is that a $400 pair of headphones can sound like a pair of electrostatic or ribbon speakers, that are far easier to drive and don't have room effects to worry about. SIngle driver and no crossover network = extremely clean and detailed sound. A lowly headphone like an HD 595 can in fact boast comparatively better bass response than the aforementioned speakers because, although having a driver of something like 40 or 50mm diameter, it only has to generate sound pressure enough to travel something like 1.5 inches to your eardrum, and has no wall behind it to muck around with the long wavelengths. They will also reproduce far more detail than a cone-driven speaker, and as a result, will make badly recorded or mastered recordings sound... well, bad.
 
Even so, I find EQing said recordings makes them sound overall sound less "sharp" and more muddy, and so for headphone listening I stick to the "cancel" switch. For the speakers I find less is more, and rarely adjust any of the settings beyond plus or minus 1 on the preamp, and usually resort to just moving them around if I need to compensate (which is a pain in the arse). That being said, my old Quad 44 does use hardware for its filters, and I have yet to acquire a digital device to play around with to do the same things, so I can't comment on how much cleaner something like this would be. Experience says it should be pretty bad, as VLC player and the iPod itself both have "digital equalizers", and they sound hideous. There are component fully-digital equalizers out there however (mostly for professional use), and I would figure they would sound rather better.
 
At the end of the day, if the recording is crap (and your room isn't), then look around for a better recording - a lot of music is really badly mastered, especially consumer releases on iTunes or CD - if you want an older album, see if it has a Mobile FIdelity release, or look for limited edition "original master" releases (which will often be Japanese). Digital transcription isn't as easy as it seems, and the difference between a properly mastered album and a mass-produced edition can be enormous. If you still aren't happy, get another pair of headphones that plays that music more to your liking.  People buy speakers based on their musical tastes, and adjust their placement in the room (or the room itself) to suit their music. A pair of Stax earspeakers will do a symphony orchestra quite well, but you may find a nice closed pair of headphones will do Mr. Oizo more justice.
 
In short - EQing should be done very little if at all, and it is preferrable to skip it if at all possible!

 

[jdandy]

My approach to equalization involves treating the room first, and then using a McIntosh MEN220 Room Equalization System based on licensed technology from Lyndorf Room Perfect system.
 
My living room is 12' x 17'.  I have installed two Echo Buster bass traps, and seven acoustic panels in this room, which has effectively removed a standing wave issue I had, and tamed first reflections from flat wall surfaces.  The installation of the bass traps and the acoustic panels made a large improvement in the room's sound.
 
Adding the McIntosh MEN220 Room Perfect to the mix was icing on the cake.  The MEN220 uses a calibrated microphone on a stand to measure the rooms sonic signature.  A series of five or six measurements are taken in different areas of the room.  This is performed with computer generated simultaneous multiple tones played through the right channel speaker, then the left channel speaker, and the results are stored as a 3-D image of the rooms sonic signature.  Then the MEN220 Room Perfect software develops filters that correct for room anomalies, all done in the digital domain.  The result is a further reduction of the room's acoustic signature impacting the musical performance.  The software allows you to have multiple focus positions as well, so that a listening sweet spot can be shifted to a second or third seating position.  The MEN220 improves the sound stage focus both left to right , and front to back, as well as improving localization of musicians places on the sound stage.  The MEN220 is a remarkable piece of audio technology.  Coupled with the acoustic panels and bass traps, the entire package has taken a mediocre room and turned it into an excellent listening environment.

 

[BlackbeardBen]

That makes me think of yesterday, when I spent some time auditioning a pair of Martin Logan Vantage speakers.  They were powered by a Swedish amp and separate music server/preamp that I can't remember, and a Thorens turntable & preamp for the vinyl end.
 
The room was the basement of the store, with old concrete walls and ceilings - none of which had any sort of damping or diffusing materials (other than the carpeted floor and the speakers lined up on the rear wall).  The left side was open to a larger theater, with a wall close on the right side.
 
At first I was impressed with the speakers - well, I thought that I had finally heard something that equaled the transparency of my Infinitys.  But then I put on some music I was familiar with...  The mids and highs were still excellent (I was particularly impressed with the dynamics and quality at low volume levels), but the bass was horrid.  Well, horrid for speakers that cost 65000 SEK (equivalent to $10,000 - double their cost in the US).  Uneven and poorly integrated between the panel and the woofer, and the lowest fundamentals were mostly missing (and still very uneven when adjusting the 35 Hz dial on the crossover).

Well, then I leaned forward and all of a sudden the bass level doubled...  I then got up and walked around the room, and it was the most uneven bass response I've ever heard in a room.  Not just the usual increase in bass when you get close to the speakers (combining the reflected rear wave with direct radiation from the speakers, I presume), but major changes throughout the entire room.  Now I know what horrible room acoustics is like...  And it's supposed to be one of their audition rooms, too.
 
Of course, I can't really judge the bass of the speakers in a room like that, so I'll have to save my impressions on the speakers themselves for another listen in a better room.  I'm not sure if the missing fundamentals in the bass, very uneven levels, and poor integration with the panels will be completely resolved in a proper room - I fear not, but I don't know.
 
In this respect, I understand why so many find headphones to be far superior to speakers - the $110 Alessandro MS-1i (okay, more like $140 with VAT in Sweden) outperformed the $10000 Martin Logans in essentially every way as far as the mid-bass and bass goes...  On the other hand, I can't help but think that people are buying the wrong speakers then...

 

[jdandy]

BlackbeardBen.......I consider it a disservice to potential customers when an audio dealer makes no effort to create a proper listening environment to audition speakers.  It does not matter if a room is not perfectly gorgeous to look at, but it definitely matters if a room is acoustically objectionable, and no effort has been made to treat any of the irregularities.  The dealer you mentioned is attempting to sell $10K Martin Logan's in an acoustic garbage can.  It is just plain stupid on his part.  Even worse, this is actually not that uncommon.  It is bad enough that we must audition speakers in unfamiliar surroundings, often with amplifiers, sources components, and cables we don't plan to use.  This is why it is so important to be able to have an in home audition of speakers, although it is rarely allowed by dealers.  That is what makes it so much more important that speakers are properly set up in dealer show rooms in spaces that have had the room's acoustic signature considered and optimized.  This approach also generates another sales opportunity for the dealer by allowing him to discuss the merits of acoustical treatment in the home.
 
I understand your point about people buying the wrong speakers.  Until the speakers are home, a customer generally has no idea how they will really sound, especially auditioning in a poor listening environment such as you described.

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Quote:

BlackbeardBen.......I consider it a disservice to potential customers when an audio dealer makes no effort to create a proper listening environment to audition speakers.  It does not matter if a room is not perfectly gorgeous to look at, but it definitely matters if a room is acoustically objectionable, and no effort has been made to treat any of the irregularities.  The dealer you mentioned is attempting to sell $10K Martin Logan's in an acoustic garbage can.  It is just plain stupid on his part.  Even worse, this is actually not that uncommon.  It is bad enough that we must audition speakers in unfamiliar surroundings, often with amplifiers, sources components, and cables we don't plan to use.  This is why it is so important to be able to have an in home audition of speakers, although it is rarely allowed by dealers.  That is what makes it so much more important that speakers are properly set up in dealer show rooms in spaces that have had the room's acoustic signature considered and optimized.  This approach also generates another sales opportunity for the dealer by allowing him to discuss the merits of acoustical treatment in the home.
 
I understand your point about people buying the wrong speakers.  Until the speakers are home, a customer generally has no idea how they will really sound, especially auditioning in a poor listening environment such as you described.

Oh, I agree, it's definitely a disservice to potential customers.  That store is actually quite, well, perplexing to me.  They make sure to press home the benefits of all the different speaker cables they sell - twisted pairs, twisted with a third wire, shielded, flat wire (but with normal strands...) silver, special "bassy" cables, and so on - yet they don't have any acoustic treatment anywhere in their different audition rooms.  Well, I'm not even sure if you can call them rooms because they're not really separated - more like partial enclaves within the upstairs and downstairs main rooms.
 
After spending some time talking with the owner about such things - actually, it was really just him talking to me - I decided that I would just keep quiet about my opinions and let him do his thing.  He had told me that the Martin Logan setup had been finely tuned - obviously that wasn't the case.  When I tried to criticize the bass response of the Vantages, which were entirely missing the lowest fundamentals, he started on about some other particular speakers being better for those who like more bass...  Well, I'm not a basshead - I just want flat, even bass response; and those definitely didn't provide it as set up.
 
This is Sweden after all - I believe they're primarily a lifestyle-oriented dealership.  95% of their customers (as far as I've seen) are interested solely in the lowest-end headphones and integrated audio systems - Tivoli radios and the like.  They even moved the big Infinitys - the rather rare Prelude 40 - downstairs a while ago.  Although, to be honest, they didn't impress me very much - quite inferior to the ML Vantage and definitely nowhere near the performance of the Infinitys of old.

Anyway, for them I think that looks are more important than just about anything else.  As such, like I said I pretty much keep my opinions to myself - the owner is nice enough to let me spend hours listening to the different headphones they have in stock, including the HD 800, T1, K701, DT 880, DT 990, and more - so I'd rather stay in their favor, you know?  I've only spent about $30 in there, on one of the little "Made in Ireland" plastic clips for my HD 600 (which I've actually heard you can get free of charge from Sennheiser if you call them).  Everything is priced so high compared to what it costs from anywhere else in Sweden or the EU (like over $500 equivalent for the AKG K701, or $200 for a very basic DAC kit) that it's hard to justify any sort of significant purchase there.  You know, I'd like to support them, but...

 

[jdandy]

BlackbeardBen.......I understand the dilemma.  I am always amused when I express an opinion of what I am hearing to a store owner or even a sales person, and have them immediately try to change the subject by directing my attention to another speaker or component, rather than discuss a comment I just made.  If you say you like what you are hearing, then the salesman is all over it, basically trying to encourage your purchase, but if you make a comment about something lacking, it's as though you had said nothing.  I much prefer to be left alone when auditioning anything.  Having the distraction of another person wanting to talk while you want to listen is disturbing, and I don't appreciate it.  In a polite way I generally let my intentions be known.
 
I am most fortunate to have access to several audio dealers that I have long term relationships with, and who offer good discounts if they believe I am seriously shopping for something new.  My feeling is, if a dealer isn't interested enough to earn my business by offering enough incentive to trigger my desire to buy, and stands fast on full retail, or in some cases above list, then I will shop elsewhere.  I like supporting local dealers, and I want them to stay in business, but at the same time I want to benefit from my purchase, too.  I can buy at full retail anywhere.  All I ask is make me want to buy it from your store.

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Quote:

BlackbeardBen.......I understand the dilemma.  I am always amused when I express an opinion of what I am hearing to a store owner or even a sales person, and have them immediately try to change the subject by directing my attention to another speaker or component, rather than discuss a comment I just made.  If you say you like what you are hearing, then the salesman is all over it, basically trying to encourage your purchase, but if you make a comment about something lacking, it's as though you had said nothing.  I much prefer to be left alone when auditioning anything.  Having the distraction of another person wanting to talk while you want to listen is disturbing, and I don't appreciate it.  In a polite way I generally let my intentions be known.
 
I am most fortunate to have access to several audio dealers that I have long term relationships with, and who offer good discounts if they believe I am seriously shopping for something new.  My feeling is, if a dealer isn't interested enough to earn my business by offering enough incentive to trigger my desire to buy, and stands fast on full retail, or in some cases above list, then I will shop elsewhere.  I like supporting local dealers, and I want them to stay in business, but at the same time I want to benefit from my purchase, too.  I can buy at full retail anywhere.  All I ask is make me want to buy it from your store.

Well, I have to admit that part of the problem is that here in Sweden almost everything is much more expensive than in the Eurozone.  That it's often less expensive to import something from the US and pay hefty international shipping (and also the 25% VAT, of course) is telling...
 
I do like your attitude very much - I'd be interesting to see how much the owner is willing to budge.  Honestly though, among products I can afford he doesn't have the ones that I want...  Products from upstarts and such, although I do like the HD 800 and T1 (they're just way above my range right now, especially here in Sweden - like 50% more expensive than from Germany).
 
I found a photo of that room I was talking about:
 

 
It's set up differently now - the listening position (with the same chair) is now 90 degrees counterclockwise of what it is here.  The chair is now located perhaps half way between its current position and the right speaker in the photo..  The Martin Logans were set up in front of that low step on the left.  The KEF banners (or speakers) aren't there anymore, of course - it's pretty much bare wall and piping, with speakers lined up in storage on the rear wall (on the right in the photo).
 
It looks nice for a basement, but that's about all I can say...  The walls and ceiling are typical Swedish poured concrete (you can see the imprint of the wooden planks used as the pouring mold on the arched ceiling), and the floor is just a very thin carpet.
 
Oh, and the chair is comfy!

 

[jdandy]

BlackbeardBen.......Thanks for posting the photo.  As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.  Untreated poured concrete walls and ceiling create a very reflective surface, which equate to a poor listening environment.  That is a real shame, because the equipment and speakers that are offered have the ability to sound amazing if set up properly.  Like you said in an earlier post, people seem to be buying for show rather than performance.  And you are right, the chair does look comfortable.  It's probably the best thing about the whole room.

 

[epocs]

I honestly think a little EQ goes a long way. There are certain headphones that I feel would benefit from a little bit of EQ either in the top or bottom end. I EQ my HD800 to have be 2db less at 16khz and 2b more at 32hz and there is no distortion or oddity in the sound at all. It sounds much better to me than ever before.
 
When it comes down to EQing where distortion could be heard, then I do see a problem. However, I feel like the solution I have with adjusting the treble and bass a very minor amount is a heck of a lot better solution than buying a 400 dollar cable (and i still don't know if that would solve anything)

 

[king.mark]

I EQ my HD800 too

Of all my headphones and the ones I tried I like the HD800 the most.
They have an amazing bass but the quantity is just a little low for my taste.
I use the foobar EQ to add 4db at 55Hz and 77Hz, which are the lowest two bands.

 

[aangen]

I have an Anthem Statement D2 Pre-Processor which offers a room equalization process called "ARC". You hookup a special microphone and do several readings from five or more positions in the room. You can then choose to use the EQ settings it provides or switch them off. I find the difference in my room to be subtle but I prefer to have the results of this process engaged. Your mileage may vary. The process is interesting, each speaker makes a peculiar whoop 3 times, one speaker at a time. After it is done the computer (it requires an external computer) does a lot of computations and then it uploads the profile. It includes graphs that show the frequency response of each speaker from the microphones position. These graphs also show the desired frequency response that will result from the process. To me the end result is very pleasing. It is easy to defeat if someone who is religiously opposed to such things were to infect visit my audio room.

 

[tlcocks]

Certainly the quality of EQ is important... and just because its outboard and digital, it's not a guarantee of quality. I've found whatever algorithms in use with both the superceded and current Behringers (the 8024 and 2496) to be somewhat flawed for example. It doesn't appear to be just a matter of the way the system handles cumulative gain (or reduction). What you are ultimately paying for with these systems as a user, you have to bear in mind, is primarily about software and the ability of the hardware to handle it.


Generally speaking I guess analog equalisers work better for 'audiophile' (i.e. subjective) equalisation as there are less glaring issues with the sound when you get things wrong. I use plugins from Algorithmix (Blue, Red and Orange) which has good rep for mastering and suits the way I use EQ's, particularly for headphones.

The quality of the EQ is EVERYTHING. I use a Charter Oak Acoustics PEQ1 analog EQ ($2700) with a Bryston b135 sst integrated amp ($6000)with my Martin Logan’s.
The results are nothing less than staggering.

 

[Jon L]

I use the foobar EQ to add 4db at 55Hz and 77Hz, which are the lowest two bands.

Try the Foobar Graphic Equalizer, which has 31 bands all the way from 20 to 20kHz, allowing much finer control.
https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_dsp_xgeq

In general, having powerful EQ abilities is a dangerous thing due to the temptation to over-correct. Even for certain problem albums, I usually stay within 2dB changes at most.
If one needs to apply much larger corrections than that, that usually means something major needs attention in the system, and large amount of EQ will tend to diminish transparency and naturalness of the original recording.

 

[tlcocks]

Try the Foobar Graphic Equalizer, which has 31 bands all the way from 20 to 20kHz, allowing much finer control.
https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_dsp_xgeq

In general, having powerful EQ abilities is a dangerous thing due to the temptation to over-correct. Even for certain problem albums, I usually stay within 2dB changes at most.
If one needs to apply much larger corrections than that, that usually means something major needs attention in the system, and large amount of EQ will tend to diminish transparency and naturalness of the original recording.

Your comments are fair for digital EQ. if you’ve never tried studio-grade several thousand dollar EQ, you be shocked at how far you have to boost before unnatural or less transparency or reduced sound staging sets in. Remember, expensive pro analog mastering EQ like mine is used to master some of your favorite recordings

 

[bagwell359]

The quality of the EQ is EVERYTHING. I use a Charter Oak Acoustics PEQ1 analog EQ ($2700) with a Bryston b135 sst integrated amp ($6000)with my Martin Logan’s.
The results are nothing less than staggering.

Which Logans? I had the CLS IIz for a long time, also SL-3, Vista for shorter periods, plus a number of other panels.

Back then I had no belief in EQ due to meh results from my Soundcraftsman 2217 back in 1978. Now I do - but digital EQ. Back then (and now) I'm into room improvements first.