A great thread, glad to see a revive.....
Some of the posts contained really go to length to describe 'how to', and seems like posters have taken the attitude to "keep focused to head-fi".
So I will take a moment to share an idea, and hope that the idea perpetuates and is used more often than it presently is...
Probably not relevant to 'many users', if only for the requisite redundancies in 'hardware lying around'....
For those of use who keep our hifi/'surround sound' system seperate to our (hifi) 2 channel kit;
I take my two channel kit 'fairly seriously', and place most of my best bits in the more revealing setup, naturally..
For the last couple of months I have been rotating various two channel amplifiers through the setup, as power amps mostly, but dependant on the amplifier put in play.
I passed up some of the 'better' options simply because they couldn't use my best connections and power isolation etc, which DO make such a huge difference that the system sounded 'fairly magical' even using a 'surround amplifier' for the power amp duties..
When using a 'surround amp' of course, most built in the last twenty years or so will include speaker/room correction software.
Knowing that I wouldn't be keeping the surround amp in situ for a long while, I decided to 'make use of it' whilst it was in place.
So, last week I spent the most part of the day (/night) using the tuning software to profile the sound output by the two loudspeakers until I had their playback range closer to flatline by ROOM POSITION.
They wouldn't be four inches moved from their original location, which to be fair, had given 'fairly flatline sound' where I had ultimately placed them (after four or more adjustments when first setting them up).
Whilst I was doing such subtle adjustments, I took the effort to listen to the 'good placements' with a sample of a test track (Vanessa Mae/Butterfly Suite Violin Concerto(track one, 21:00 minutes to 22:00 minute mark) to make sure that the sound stage was playing out 'well'.
For the effort invested, the ultimate result, like many who live with re-equalisers in their system, was vastly better sound (I bypass all processing), and the best thing was being able to swap in 'other antiquated 2 channel amplifiers' and have that 'closer to studio sound' naturally with little tweaking.
In fact the first few minutes of auditioning the replacement 'entry level' two channel amp (which couldn't make use of the $600 US power cables or power isolation units in my rig), was 'exceptional', and confirmed (even when anaemic sounding due to being freshly powered from 'storage') , was that in some ways it was clearly better, and for the few ways it was 'inferior', I knew that an hour to two of being powered would level (mostly) that playing field.
True, my experiences with decent power filtration/recreation etc is that it is like upclassing equipment to the 'next tier up', something I first experienced nearly two decades ago when a 'decent power board (Thor A1)'(built for Australian power, but then bought by Monster; the original people now run 'Powerguard' is my understanding(seems like good kit!)), that the difference to a nice two channel system through power improvement can translate to what feels like a 10dB improvement in the 'signal to noise' / 'blacker background' for audio to erupt from...
Does an entry level two channel amp (with tuner and no 'source direct') outclass a 'one from flagship' surround receiver, even when the surround receiver has the better ancillary parts?
Yes- absolutely.
This isn't new to me though, I learned a lot about audio in my first decade of the hobby, and experienced firsthand, three decades ago, that an entry level two channel amp will hold its own/'flog' surround amps (including many of the flagships/'best ones').
Now I do have an Anthem receiver which can do 're-eq' to perfection, and could no doubt provide me 'good two channel' (I use it for surround processing and to amplify one or two speakers..)(in the cinema setup)..
It sounds great; listening to Indiana Jones (quadrilogy) reveals why exceptional playback of orchestral sound is the high watermark to try to obtain; the emotional engagement with the source material is why we get into the hobby, surely- but my middling experience of using dedicated processors vs integrated surround amps, is that dedicated processors FLOG 'all in ones'.
The Anthem is the closest I have come to '(outboard) processor sound' from an 'all in one', and is why I'd be interested to compare it to 'an entry level' two channel setup..
Take aways:
if you want decent two channel audio (ie to equate to headphone rig sound, a semi costly two channel setup might be required so as not to go 'backwards' in sound quality (headphone rigs give exceptional 'bang for buck' when chasing audio gold)), forget using surround amps altogether (they sound 'very digital' AT BEST), but do not discount the benefit of 'cheating'; using the surround amplifiers on screen display and MEASUREMENT of your existing speaker positions to calibrate/refine your room sound; in my example- used to find (closer to) flatline sound without equalisation.
Certainly the MORE work that the processing/re-eq box has to do, the more unnatural sound can get.
For any surround rig I use, I use the measurement software to show me the channel adjustments (in terms of power level) and then trim the levels on the external power amps so that the re-equalised sound by the processor doesn't have to swing ANY of the channels by more than 3-4dB
ie the initial calibration might have me raising rear height speakers by 8dB and lowering front/centre by a couple of dB: meaning that the processor is handling more than ten dB of 'volume swing'.
When surround processors do this, their resultant sound output, when running their re-equalisation, is often anaemic sounding or 'shrill'/nasal/'thin'...
If you took the knowledge of those +8dB results (and -2dB on other channels etc), and then trim all the channels on the power amps so that the processor can run the 're-eq' process AGAIN; this time it will alter all channels by only a decibel (or two).
The surround processor will sound MUCH BETTER for easing the burden of attempting to make eleven channels all sound the same. (vs having the internal boards boost/cut sound by 10db to match, and somehow still sound DYNAMIC!?)
So; TWO EXAMPLES of using a preliminary test to tailor sound for the better, the cost is a once off time investment, the reward is ongoing better sound daily.
Listening now to the results of a (half) days' effort is a nice sounding realistic rig that is useful in trying to learn/understand a recording.
Once we understand some recordings then we are in a better position to judge/test kit. (we need to experience a reference for what something SHOULD sound like)
Generally the ten times investment cost to 'jump to speakers' (vs head-fi) is a poor proposition, in terms of value, to achieve 'great sound'.
It might not be "10x", but its probably 'in the ballpark'. I am implying that $500 worth of headphone rig might take $5k to get the 'same level of sound quality' but from a hifi (speakers) setup. (It might only be 8x or it might be more than 10x- I wouldn't say its a perfect scaling, and is totally dependant on price points/value on existing parts.
Things get crazy when we start talking about 2k+ pricepoint headphones as an example (to make an equivalent speaker system)