[elwappo99]

This thread is chaos. Rules of discussion I have learned:
 
1. Don't talk about religion
2. Don't talk about politics
3. Don't talk about headphone wires.

 

[BIG POPPA]

It got a laugh out of me.
 
Quote:

3. Don't talk about headphone wires.

 

[Bullseye]

And beeman keeps at it:
 

 
Maybe he should re-read his posts again... just sayin'

 

[terriblepaulz]

Quote:

Man, taking this hobby a little too serious. I was in a room full of people on Sunday enjoying headphones with custom cables, not one mentioned the couldn't hear a difference. If you are so convinced that Headphone cables do not make a difference organize a meet and have some local Head-fiers decide? Oh yeah, I do organize a meet in my area 3-4 times a year and none of us talk like this to each other. We say "hello", 'Nice to see you again' and "where are we going for the after meet".
 


 

 
My (informal, sighted) testing at meets has only increased my skepticism.  I don't mean to be rude, but my observations at meets lead me to conclude that what is going on could be described as communal reinforcement, or the "Bandwagon Effect".

 

[BIG POPPA]

I can see that point. Part of going to meets is getting familiar with gear you would not normally get the chance to. There is a core of Head-fiers that make it to all the meets for years we have been doing this. There are a few of us that can tell you what a cable's sound by experience. There is something to say about knowing your gear inside and out. Knowing it's strengths and weakness'. For casual listeners you may or may not hear a difference with headphone cables. Have had my Senns going on 4 years. It would be safely to say I am very intimate with their sound. That is the first step. Knowing the sound of your rig. Then the rest will fall in place.

 

[kboe]

Would every one be ok if we all just left this thread, said our good byes, wished each other well and went our own ways?  Because heres what I see going on.
 
Two camps.  One believes cables make an improvement in their systems, their general argument is that they hear what they hear, and if their the only person in the world who hears cables make an improvement, they don't care.  Its about subjectivity.  Its all about the experience of the music over their rig to them, not anyone else, DBT results, or other music lovers.
 
Second camp believes that DBT make out most companies to be rip offs, find their answer not only in what they don't hear, but what science tells them others can't hear as well.  Its about objectivity, and they still enjoy the snot out of their rigs.
 
Whats their to debate?  We both hove our beliefs, we both have our experiences to back them up, and we both arrive at the same conclusion, music is AWESOME over our perspective rigs. We don't need to save each other, we don't need to re-educate each other, we don't have to agree, but we should co-exist with respect.  
 
 
 
 
 
So even if no one else leaves this thread, I will.  I've learned what I can bout the other side, but it hasn't changed a thing about what I hear, nor what I believe about subjectivity over objectivity, and so I'm good to go!  I'll watch, but from a distance.
 
Best wishes to every one who battles on.
 
Beeman458, Uncle Erik, with or without cables, happy tunes.
 
Kevin

 

[BIG POPPA]

I trust my ears. That is why I spend the money.

 

[twylight]

Read the link beerman, read who wrote and his accomplishments in the industry.  Read the history of after market cables since he was standing there when they were "invented" - he invented and designed most of McIntosh's products btw.
 
I have already opened my ears and tried cables, you should open your mind and consider the other side of the coin.
 
Trolling, shilling, or insane...not sure which you are...but if this is just trolling - I give you a 10/10.
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

Because neither believers nor skeptics can hear a difference with their eyes closed.
 
I say that it's auto-suggestion as to why you can't hear a difference.  Life's not so easy when it's based on a two-way street.
 
You can't hear a difference.  I can.  I don't care what you can or can't hear.  You seem to be far too worried about what you can't hear and what I can hear.  What I'm reading into this point is, there's projecting going on that's based upon shoddy testing methodology on the part of the anti-cable set.
 
I'll look forward towards you folks addressing the analogue nature of the human sensory system and the elimination of all line leveling.  I'll look forward to the end of trickery as in not doing what you say you're doing.  If you say a change is taking place, then a change "must" take place.  If you say a certain cable is being used, than that cable "must" be used.  All tests must be based on properly warmed up equipment the individual has familiarized themselves on where they've had a chance to listen and acclimate to the "two" (and only two) cables being used.  The person being tested is the one who does the changing so they control the back-n-forth cable exchange, just like they do in real life.  The point, let's eliminate all the skulduggery on the part of the anti-cable set being used to foster their bias'.
 
Once you get the BS (bias) of the anti-cable people out of the way, the truth will come through.  You've created a test environment that's impossible to pass and the anti-cable group gloat on this point in the same fashion that Jack Horner did.  I'm sure you know the story behind that childhood rhyme.  And to this day the family claims innocents.
 
Riiiiiight.
 

I am sure we can see the flaw in the highlighted part. No matter what arguments you come up with there is no trickery or skulduggery involved in any test I have read about. Beeman has been reduced to claiming anything no matter how ridiculous it is as a counter argument.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Beeman458, go take a look at Edwood's cable test. All the "biases" you list were eliminated. No one could tell the cables apart and each reviewer had different reactions.

You might have a point about autosuggestion for not hearing a difference if the other side had any evidence.

There will be more tests, too, of a similar nature. As I said before, I'll either prove myself right or turn it into a moneymaker. Being right is satisfying, but I'd almost rather be wrong and make money from being wrong. The problem is that I cannot sell a product in good conscience that makes no difference.

 

[BlazingArrow74]

... Wow, I'm suprised I read this entire thread ... The only false dichotomy I see here is the insistence by beeman in labling the lot-of-us as either pro-cable or anti-cable ... Overwhelmingly, we are all pro-cable, as we need cabling for our systems to work; some of us prefer a certain build-quality, sheath, or wire-element and for others, we just read specs; but it should be obvious to most that the exorbitant cost in much of cable-esoteria has more to do with craft, rather than performance ... This is what must be understood: long after a cable's design and materials have done all they can; the increasing price points in this spectrum justify themselves more-and-more solely on status ... What you are really paying for is the ability to say you own something, if not actaully-existentially rare, rare-enough to be amoung an exclusive group of consumers; and in some twisted way, for some people, this actaully adds to their listening experience ... I am not here to aruge that ... But to bash scientific measurement (using scopes, etc.) in argument for the subjective (and many times vague) claims to judgements such as "spaciousness, air, PRAT, detail" is pure folly ... One of the great strengths of mathematical measurement is it's near-universal cognizance ... I'll take an account of a music lover's SPL measure, any day, over another's account of "presence" ... I'll admit, there is much in art that cannot be measured, but the discrete materials involved in it's reproduction CAN; but more than anything in beeman's posts I sense a smugness about him, and to defend his feelings of needing to be special, a strawman was created with a pitchfork of "this is how you will spend your money and be-happy" in one hand, and a musket of "you must hear how we hear" in the other: both pointed straight at him ...
 
... All beeman has done here, is attempt to defend his right to be foolish, and feverishly bark-out anyone he assumes is infringing upon his right to spend as he pleases ... These have been false alarms, beeman ... Nobody is attempting to hamper anything you do for your own enjoyment as much as you are making yourself a gleaming posterchild for the kind of fanaticism that characterizes those who lubricate themselves at the trough of snake oil ... You are effectively painting a bullseye on yourself with your uberdefensive responses ... As someone mentioned earlier, there is only a problem when a company makes extraordinary claims to a product with no evidence of proof ... We all understand that pretty, expensive things make you happy: that's fine ... But please quit insulting others: telling them, essentially, 'they're only hating because they can't hear XYZ, and you can' when their only argument has been for evidence to these claims, which in-turn MAY warrant justification for some of these outrageous prices ...
 
... If I could end hunger on a small island somewhere for the price of a set of cables, I'd at least need to know that they're doing what they claim to do ...

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

"People More Readily Believe That Which They Prefer To Be True." -- Sir Francis Bacon

I think your sig really says it all.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Blazing Arrow, to paraphrase that old American proverb, "give a man enough cable and he'll hang himself."

 

[rusitnpiece]

 
Beeman please state these bad ideas you are talking about. Let me guess Flawed testing etc. I don't understand where you get the "flawed" or designed for "fail" arguments from. 
Quote:

 
My mind is open but it's closed to bad ideas.  One day, you'll too come to this conclusion.
 

 

[Bullseye]

BlazingArrow74, nice write up there. You explained yourself very well.
 
If you read beeman's answer he clearly has no clue as to how to rebate. He is ignoring the rest of your reply in the same way he added people to his ignore list. Not as it is the first time he does it 

 
Prog Rock Man, rusitnpiece and others, I believe you are aware of it, but asking something to beeman is a waste of time. He will not answer any question. He'll try to avoid it by saying it is biased, or some conspiracy theory he'll invent at that time. Of course he'll try to put himself as a victim and the "anti-cable set" (as he likes to call it) as the oppressor. 
 
They just keep missing the/our main point (or the want to miss it), even if it has been said again and again