[Trippytiger]

So far my first university math course (basic calculus...) has been my hardest. I'm quite sure that I've failed it, actually, but I'll have to wait to get my exam mark back before I'll know for sure.

I found the course really frustrating because we spent so much time dealing with proofs and theorems and other stuff that I thought was so incredibly irrelevant to the course I'm taking (first year engineering).

 

[Edwood]

Back when I started majoring in ChemE, Differential Equations. I have not yet really have not had the chance to use anything I learned back then. Basic Arithmetic, Algebra, Geometry, and Trig are the only applicable math I have ever used in my design career.

Yeah, I went from Engineering to Design.

-Ed

 

[Beach123456]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beach123456 Yeah, ive got to study for a quiz tonight and will probably try this instead of the notes, I have no idea how to do most of what is on the quiz and will try to learn as much as I can tonight. Zanth: I don't really need to do any of that stuff yet, I believe I currently have an A in the class, it just takes a lot more effort to not zone out while the boring teachers ramble on....and on.....and on.........

S**T!!!!!!!!



Learning how to do the problems in one night didnt turn out too well. Just took the quiz today, and got a C at best. I think the vocabulary and the section that you didnt actually have to fully solve the problems saved my ass big..... In the actual solving section with 4 questions, I think I got at best 1 right.



S**T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[purk]

Beach,
You have to try harder man. Try to give yourself at least a week b/f test time.

 

[Beach123456]

Thats the thing, we only get 2-3 days notice on these things, and yes, I am trying.

 

[SunByrne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjg You can make this argument,

Which argument, mine? I'll assume that, but I wonder if you're in fact responding to something else.

Quote:

I think math is way more important then most people realize.

I don't disagree with that one bit. In fact, I would rate innumeracy in students as one of my top professional peeves.

Quote:

The idea that most people aren't intuitive enough to learn advanced math is a pessimistic outlook on average human capability.

OK, maybe you weren't replying to me, because I didn't say this AT ALL. I fully agree that many more people could learn calculus if it were taught better, but I don't see why this would be better than learning any number of other topics, like discrete math or prob & stat.

Quote:

I think that attitude is a major part of the core of the problem!

I agree again. However, I believe that teaching calculus as a default tends to encourage the negative attitude. I loved math until I got to calculus, then I found it astonishingly dull, and when I realized how much other "higher" math wasn't calc I went back to loving math. I think placing calc where it is in the curriculum--that is, required for everyone right after algebra/trig--is EXACTLY part of the problem.

Quote:

Dulling the requirements in education and looking for practicality alone is all part of diffusing and brushing off a problem, rather then approaching it and handling it.

We agree in principle, but I guess not in practice. I don't think replacing calc with prob and stat would be necessarily any less rigorous--this would not be "dulling" the requirements, just changing the focus. I think calculus is the wrong focus for virtually everyone except maybe for engineers who know they'll actually be using it. I object to calculus strictly for the sake of calculus.

Quote:

We need to build stronger students by actually forcing and pushing them towards doing work that makes them think! Challenge students, involve them in a study, don't hand them eveything on a silver platter, and let them complain, then give it to them their way... In the long run, perhaps they might be thankful since they would've never realized their potential had they not recieved this sort of push.

I agree with this as well--but as someone who teaches statistics at the graduate level (though admittedly to social scientists), it is definitely the case that students can be pushed and challenged with prob and stat just as easily as they can with calculus. And, frankly, I think more students would rise to the challenge if the material were more germane than calculus.

But that could just be me.

 

[mjg]

Sunbyrne;

yea that was all to you man..
I sort of misunderstood your message, i ahd more stuff i wrote but it was in light of approaching your comments under false pretense...

YET, i don't think calculus is only for engineers. I think if one were to study statistics realisticly they'd need it. I'm sure you probablly agree on that...

I'm saying math for the sake of math is important also, rather then math for the sake of utility. Math in itself is a self perpetuating excericse in human intellect that forces people to think. Yea, some math seems like drivel to most, and useless... Yet, the practice of using the intellectuality is itself far more practical in the long run..

Calculus is a poor example, though i do feel it is essential for anyone getting a serious education in science ... I think a course in mathematical thinking, problem solving style logistics towards "math" problems is more of what i'd base most people's core of math education, if it were my job. I'd say show people how to approach problems, give them the ammo to attack any sort of math related problem... Don't just hand them the formula sheet and count the number of correct answers. It's a shame most people will only see and understand math as means to get answers more so then a method to understand relationships.

These kinds of ideas aren't only related to math, yet math is a good place to start this sort of sysematic way of approaching and understanding material also i feel.

BTW, i see most of your points, i just disagree that i'd sub in statistics for calculus, though i guess i can agree with you that calculus to people with zero future in math isn't really useful (yet i feel it a shame they stop there).

 

[fante7]

I like generalized abstract nonsense, ya know

 

[SunByrne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjg YET, i don't think calculus is only for engineers. I think if one were to study statistics realisticly they'd need it. I'm sure you probablly agree on that...

You are, of course, right. I guess what I object to is where calculus is placed in the math curriculum. What I disagree with is the idea that everyone--or even most--should have calculus right after algebra/trig. There are SO MANY options for what could be taught at that stage, and I just don't understand why calculus is the universal choice.

Quote:

I'm saying math for the sake of math is important also, rather then math for the sake of utility. Math in itself is a self perpetuating excericse in human intellect that forces people to think. Yea, some math seems like drivel to most, and useless... Yet, the practice of using the intellectuality is itself far more practical in the long run.

While I agree that math is a Good Thing and most people don't get enough. But, as someone who's been around for arguments amongst faculty about university curriculum, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that everybody thinks most people don't get enough of whatever their favorite discipline is. Learning Latin forces people to think, too, and that was the argument for why Latin was required in a high percentage of high schools back in the day. The fact of the matter is that not everyone is interested in everything, and trying to force everyone into the same academic mold--be it math or science or foreign language or anthropology--simply doesn't work. I will admit that I'm probably more sympathetic to "math for the sake of math" than I am "epic poetry for the sake of epic poetry," but I think it's not quite that simple.

Or not. Whatever.