[tradyblix]

Me reading this thread

 

[megabigeye]

Edit: And what's wrong with partnering with Drop on some products? Their competitors who run their businesses more sensibly and thus have out-competed Sennheiser (which is what's led to this scenario) have done it: AKG, Beyer, Fostex, HiFiMan, Mr. Speakers, and Focal who you mentioned have all done Drop partnerships. You praise Focal as if they are gods of good business decisions, and then act like it's stupid for a company to partner with Drop while conveniently ignoring that the Elex exists. If anything, their Drop releases show PRECISELY what kind of innovation Senn is capable of when working with a partner with better business-sense than them, and actually prove my point. For example, the PC37x and PC38x were both MAJOR innovations in the world of headsets.

Let me see if I can explain why I don’t like the Sennhesier x Drop collaboration and why I don’t think it was a good idea. It’s mostly the HD 6XX that I don’t like, but I don’t love the idea of the 58X and 8XX either.


First of all, it alienates customers. When the HD 6XX first came out it sucked for the people that just bought the HD 650 for full retail, it still sucks for the people that don’t have access to Drop, it sucks for the people that might want to sell their old HD 650.


Second, it sucks for the other retailers that have to sell Sennheiser. I don’t know how adamant they are about it now, but some six or seven years ago Sennheiser was clamping down on retailers that were selling below MSRP. Sell below MSRP and you’re either not an authorized retailer or you have your authorization taken away. Period. This is pretty common practice across all sorts of retail products. LEGO do it; a few years ago Apple was discounting ebooks and in a major lawsuit with publishers because of it. A few years ago I bought a pair of RHA T20i at a hefty discount and RHA confirmed that the store was no longer an authorized retailer. My point is, it isn’t/wasn’t a practice peculiar to Sennheiser and it’s not something “bad” that they are/were doing.

So, the retailers aren’t allowed to sell the HD 650 below $499 without punishment, but along comes Sennheiser with the HD 6XX that is the same headphone but costs 40% (at the time) of MSRP! What are the retailers supposed to do? Suddenly they have a bunch of headphones that are available elsewhere for a fraction of the cost, and they’re left without any real recourse. That becomes, essentially, dead stock.
Maybe a retailer can send it back to the distributor, who can in turn send it back to Sennheiser… But then what is Sennheiser supposed to do with it? Send it to Europe where there’s no Drop presence? Sorry, Europe! Sucks to be you!
I worked in retail for ten years and I can tell you that if a distributor or manufacturer did this to us it would have felt like a great big “screw you!”


Third, why would they do this to their own lineup? As has already been pointed out, Sennheiser’s lineup is already kind of a mess, with products that are too close in price and too close in performance/features to be easily understood by the casual headphone buyer (not to mention the alphanumeric hodgepodge that is their naming convention). When the HD 6XX came out (or, rather, was rebranded), they already had the HD 518, HD 559, HD 599, HD 600, and HD 650. This meant that high-tier headphones (HD 650, now HD 6XX) are now the same price as their mid-tier headphones (HD 599) and even undercutting headphones that should be a tier below it (HD 600)! It’s even priced three tiers below itself (HD 650)! How does that even work?! What does that do to the perception of those headphones it’s undercutting, or even the headphones that are reasonably close in price (let alone the rest of their lineup)? Why in the world would a customer buy the low- or-mid-tier when you can get the high-tier for the same or less money? Most people (rightly or wrongly) equate price with performance, and so any reasonable, non-enthusiast customer would skip the 599 and 600 and go straight for the 6XX. And is the HD 6XX a great bargain? Or is the HD 650 a complete ripoff?

It also affects customers’ perception of the rest of the lineup. Isn’t even the 559 kind of expensive when the 6XX is such a bargain for only twice the price? Or the HD 800S, which now seems astronomically expensive by comparison. And if they’ve done this with the HD 650, will Sennheiser also eventually come out with a Massdrop version of the HD 800/S? (Now we know the answer to this.)

When they came out with the HD 6XX my first thought was, “They’re clearing stock and making room for a new model.” I assumed both the 600 and 650 would be discontinued in the near future. Lo and behold, a year later the HD 660S comes out and Sennheiser is equivocating about whether or not it’s going to replace the 650. First it was yes, then it was maybe, then it was… Let’s not talk about this and hopefully they’ll all forget about it.
Add to that the HDs 560S, 58X, 660S and things quickly become confused and completely farkakte.


Fourth, I really just don’t like discounts, and by extension not a big fan of Drop. I know, I know. This is heresy and that people will be at my door with torches and pitchforks soon, but I have my reasons. Flip Ben Franklin’s “a penny saved is a penny earned” on it’s head and you’ll start to see my reasoning: “a penny lost is a penny spent.” A discount is money lost for a retailer, which means lower margins, lower pay for workers, et cetera, et cetera. A discount here and there doesn’t hurt so much— in fact it can help— but across the board discounts are a race to the bottom, the survivors of which are the ones most able to absorb the loss, I.E., the ones with the most money or with the lowest overhead.


When the HD 6XX was first announced, I didn’t love it, but it made sense if they were just clearing HD 650 stock to make room for a new model. When they introduced the HD 660S which was to replace the HD 650/6XX it made sense. When they decided to keep the HD 650/6XX at their respective prices, it seemed like a weird decision, but I figured they must have some strategy/knowledge that I’m not privy to. When they introduced the HD 58X with similar drivers to the 660S, with performance that is comparable (or so people were saying at the time; I honestly haven’t kept up), but costing a third as much? I thought they’d lost their freaking minds.

I mind the idea HD 58X (and Drop’s other exclusive collaborations) less than I mind the HD 6XX. The 58X is more of a bargain, less of a discount. It’s not intentionally undercutting other retailers or screwing customers that don’t have access to Drop.


Anyway. Those are just my thoughts and opinions. I’m not saying they’re necessarily right, but it’s the way I’ve come to think about the whole thing. If I’ve missed anything or am mis-thinking something, let me know.

 

[darkarn]

Therein lies the rub. What you, as a listener, would consider to be unbeaten tonal accuracy is definitely not what a professional audio engineer would consider to be tonally accurate.

The HD600/650 sound really good, from a listener's perspective, but from a production perspective they're a no go - the 650 is way too coloured to give a realistic impression of what a mix will sound like on other equipment. The 600 is better in that respect, but if I had to mix with headphones I'd go with the DT800 or one of the AKG K/Q 70X models. Old school headphone models for sure, but they are for the most part tonally flat. Even though the 650, which is also of the same vintage, provides subjectively a better listening experience, objectively it's not suited to audio work as a result of being too coloured in it's presentation.

I actually thought the DT880 to be more colored than the HD650 due to the beyer peak, and also don't most studios use more than one equipment to test out how their mix would sound?

Far from reality. The HD580/HD600/HD650 have been dominant in recording studios since their release and are still used by engineers like Stephan Flock, Mandy Parnell, and countless others. It is among the most highly regarded series of headphones ever designed and it’s status in studios is no doubt legendary.

Indeed, I saw that the HD600/HD650 was highly recommended for amateur home studio users too so that was why I thought the same would hold for professional studios

Buy extras while you can, just in case. Enjoy them and don't look back.

Thanks, sounds like I know what to focus on for this year

 

[Mediahound]

Personally, can’t wait for the HE-1 to hit Drop...

 

[tubebuyer2020]

Personally, can’t wait for the HE-1 to hit Drop...

Remove marble, glass and brass and sell for $4'999. It's not like oligarchs will join a drop and wait for a year.

 

[mihaig]

I have an HD800 and it's the best open headphone I've had or tried. I use it almost daily. Sad to see they are winding down...

 

[jon parker]

I saw an interview a while back from a bigwig at Sennheiser saying they were focussing on creating & selling headphones FOR phones. In other words making a product for something that by design is NOT designed to produce or even really be fully capable of producing a great sound. Whilst I love portability and ease of use like everyone, as an audiophile Im not a big fan of phones for music, they may sound ok, even good but without a descent amp, dedicated audio build circuity and the like, a phone is just not going to cut it, at least [to be fair] for any 'serious' listening.
For just being out and about, sure

I tried their IE40 so called 'Pro' IEM - it was frankly a joke and unusable for ANY kind of so called 'PRO' usage

and then their so called 'new HD 250' - when they claimed they had managed to copy the sonic characteristics of this famous highly regarded closed back 1980's headphone. Again the bass was horrendous and NOTHING like the low end qualities that the HD 250 could offer. I wish I was lawyer and had the money to take them to task on these claims.

Long story short, Im sorry but I do not trust Sennheiser either as an Audio Engineer or for personal use. Sure there are tried and tested products out there but no thanks
Good luck to them though, if they could produce a new HD 540 for these modern times . . . In other words a headphone that actually has a natural tonality I would buy it in an instant
In the 1980 - 90's they had some extraordinary headphone designers / tuners but now, maybe they just use algorithms, computers ? Who knows
Im not convinced that the quality of hearing and people in general and the type of innovation is as good these days as it was in that magical period of 1980-90

 

[CJG888]

The HD540 lives on. These days, it’s called the DT1990 Pro...

1:0 to Heilbronn

...and I speak as a Lower Saxon...

 

[jon parker]

The HD540 lives on. These days, it’s called the DT1990 Pro...

1:0 to Heilbronn

oooh well, that's good news then, I will have to investigate this further

 

[T 1000]

The HD540 lives on. These days, it’s called the DT1990 Pro...

1:0 to Heilbronn

They are the complete opposite, I think you actually gave an own goal

Although you're right when you say that the HD 540 is still alive
And for now, no competition

 

[CJG888]

The resemblance is uncanny. I used to have HD540s back in the late 80s. I’ve been looking for that sound ever since. The HD800 didn’t quite do it. I recently took delivery of a pair of DT1990s. The moment I plugged them in: welcome home.

You must use the “analytical” pads, though.

 

[T 1000]

I haven't listened to the DT 1900 pro, but from many reviews they are aggressive, clear sound and without a big sound stage, so the opposite. But they compete with the HD 650.
Personally, I consider the whole line HD 540 to be their best headphones.

 

[CJG888]

The HD540 matter-of-fact clarity is there, without the painful T1 treble peak. I have no problems with the soundstage. I should mention, though, that I use a tube amp. YMMV with solid state.

BTW, I can’t see any common ground with the HD650. The presentation is completely different. To my ears, the closest Beyer to the HD650 is the DT150...

...which is no criticism. Horses for courses.

BTW: a genuine “reissue” of the HD250 would be quite something. I guess there would be plenty of pro customers for this, too.

HD250 Linear III?

 

[T 1000]

Велики сам поштовалац ранијих сенна. , али волим добар звук и велику звучну оцену, па ако бих неко указао на стварну надоградњу квалитета која има ХД 540, одмах их је купило и коштало до 2К

BTW, I can’t see any common ground with the HD650. The presentation is completely different. To my ears, the closest Beyer to the HD650 is the DT150...

...which is no criticism. Horses for courses.

I read that in someone's review, it doesn't really matter.
I currently use an HD 540 RG with a Cardas Clear Light - four pin cable and rank them above the HD 700, which I also owned.

But our taste is the most important, no one has to agree with me, it will not diminish my listening experience, and I consider it a positive trait.
I've heard a lot of positive reviews about the HD 250 linear, they also have a lower THD than the HD 540

In fact, there is a problem, when you have a masterpiece, how do you imagine upgrading it (without dedicated amplifiers)?

 

[CJG888]

I would have thought a reissue of the HD250 would offer the most volume potential (this is aimed at the new owners / strategic partners).

Also: isn’t 80s retro supposed to be cool?