[millerdog]

if a thread is locked, at least the moderator who locked it should explain why...
md

 

[millerdog]

i was ranting...never mind..
I still want to know why the thread was locked.
md

 

[JMT]

Although I was not the moderator that took action. I can only guess that the thread was locked because it took the form of a commercial post. There is much discussion within the moderators regarding postings of a commercial nature.

 

[jude]

I locked it.

Lately there have been more posts with commercial content -- posts made with the intent (or at least some intent) to advertise. As more DIY'ers get into the business of selling stuff at a profit (which I think is very cool), I imagine we're going to have to deal with this more and more.

As one of the moderators said to me in a discussion about this: Intro pics of new headphone products are good. Intro pics from commercial entities that have a financial interest in the pics are advertisements, and we do not allow ad-type posts in any of the General Forums.

I'm very excited to see more and more people getting into the business of headphone hi-fi -- I think it's great for the hobby. It is my intent, however, to keep advertisements in the form of posts out of the General Forums.

 

[kerelybonto]

jude, this policy might warrant a re-think. I know recently it's become more of an issue, but one of the great things about Head-Fi is the interactions between consumers and equipment manufacturers. If the idea here is restrict what manufacturers can post about their products because of a bias assumption, that's a bad idea. If, as I suspect, you're trying to parlay the relationships manufacturer develop with potential customers here into revenue for Head-Fi, that's another thing entirely. All of us would like to see the site make more (i.e., lose less) money for you, but I think there are better ways to do it than are allowed for in the current advertisment policy. I'd be happy to offer some suggestions.

Now, it's another thing entirely as to why a thread was locked due to its intial content a month after the first post. ...

kerely

 

[Flasken]

I have to agree with jude on this one.

Meier did a great example earlier of what I think is just on the border of advertisement in the amp forum when he posted pics of his new corda amps. He posted only pictures - specs very provided only when asked for. Plus (and this is very important) he also posted in Mall-fi.

I understand why jude feels used when people try to post semi- or totally commercial stuff. And he's got every single damn right to be!! For this reason alone there should be VERY strict rules for posting commercial stuff. If for nothing else, to make sure that those potential threads in the future are created in mall-fi. Not in member's lounge. (c'mon fixup, that way it's got to be perceived as a commercial post)

 

[eric343]

Just out of curiosity, it is OK to post pics and a brief description and a link to a URL containing an "I'll build you one if you want" offer ("I just designed and built a $amp_name! It's got $buffers and $opamps and does the dishes too! Here's some pics: [pics] Oh, and if you want some more information, I've put up a website: $URL") if there's also a Mall-Fi ad linking to that same URL? (or the "I want you to build me one" sub-page if any)

 

[Flasken]

hmm.. I guess it just felt to jude like a cheap trick.. I mean, why didn't fixup post in the amps forum?? Because more people visit the members lounge perhaps??

 

[Tim D]

It was in the amps forum...general forums are all forums that are not sponser/mall-fi forums.

 

[Flasken]

LOL stupid me!!! Then I slightly disagree with jude, but I don't really see how it's discussable... his rules.

Stupid mistake by me, sorry doods.

 

[jude]

[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally posted by kerelybonto jude, this policy might warrant a re-think. I know recently it's become more of an issue, but one of the great things about Head-Fi is the interactions between consumers and equipment manufacturers. If the idea here is restrict what manufacturers can post about their products because of a bias assumption, that's a bad idea. If, as I suspect, you're trying to parlay the relationships manufacturer develop with potential customers here into revenue for Head-Fi, that's another thing entirely. All of us would like to see the site make more (i.e., lose less) money for you, but I think there are better ways to do it than are allowed for in the current advertisment policy. I'd be happy to offer some suggestions. Now, it's another thing entirely as to why a thread was locked due to its intial content a month after the first post. ... kerely

[/size]

kerely,

Thanks for the input. Here's my response:

Manufacturer interaction with the users is one thing....

One example of a manufacturer who interacts very closely with the community, yet rarely crosses the line into advertising as I see it, is Joseph Lau of Antique Sound Labs. Mind you, I can't say I've read every one of his posts, but I can also say I don't recall ever editing or deleting any of his posts that I have read.

Yesterday I had a phone conversation with a DIY'er-turned-commercial-dude who I banned for a week (starting yesterday) because of repeated violations of the no-ad rule after repeated warnings. We discussed what is allowed, and what's not. This individual has recently made available printed circuit boards that many DIY'ers are interested in. What I told him was that it was okay, for example, to ask the DIY community if they had any suggested requirements or changes to what he was intending to release. This is fine, and even encouraged. I believe tangent has done this with the META42 PCBs. However, announcing the release of the final product -- well, that's an ad, and if you want to advertise, you're going to have to pay for it. Why? For a couple of reasons:

1. This place is butt expensive to run for a hobby site, and I dump at least a couple-hundred of my own bucks each and every month to keep it going. I don't think many of you realize just how many page views this joint generates. Though it appears Alexa, in the last several months, has made some modifications to its metrics, it still shows Head-Fi as generating more measured page views than Stereophile's web site, more than the SoundStage Network, more than TNT-Audio, more than Harmonic Discord, etc. (individually, not combined). I only know of a few busier audio-specific sites, in terms of total page views per unit time.
2. If we allow ads, in the form of posts, in the Main Forums (I'm going to rename "General Forums" in the rules to "Main Forums" very shortly), incentive to support Head-Fi financially will disappear. HeadRoom would have much less incentive to pay for its HeadRoom Sponsor Forum, and there would likely be zero interest going forward for anyone else to want to sponsor one. Jan Meier and FreeSystems would also have very little incentive to continue to sponsor the forums if free-for-all advertising was allowed to be posted in the General Forums. How important is that? If you want the site to stay up, it's very important, because if sponsors go away, my monthly costs escalate way beyond what I'd be willing to cover for any significant amount of time. I've already sunk many thousands of dollars of my own money into this site since June 2001, and more expenditures are needed to speed this puppy up through further hardware upgrades (we've already made some). And there hasn't been one single month since June 2001 where Head-Fi has brought in more money than I've spent on it -- not one. Destroy the sponsor or advertising incentive, and the site would eventually die. For those of you who've been part of the headphone hi-fi community since before Head-Fi, remember what happened to HeadWize when traffic started kickin' hard over there. Chu has since had some bandwidth donated to him for HeadWize, but the life of that donation, and the amount of throughput it can handle, is not certain. If you asked Chu if he wanted all this traffic, I have a feeling he'd say "no". As far as I'm concerned, long term viability is only insured by support of the commercial community. And I never want to have to ask for, or accept, money from the individual members. My intent from the get-go was to keep this free for the members to use. My intent was, and still is, to have those who wish to profit from this community supporting it.
3. And, just as importantly (in concept, if not in practicality), do any of you really want this place to look like Usenet? You'd probably be surprised if I told you how many commercial posts / advertisements we delete. Would you like to see "ADV:" threads spread about and intertwined with our discussions? Not me. We'll continue to create further opportunities for more companies to support Head-Fi, but they'll always be in ways that don't interfere with our normal discussion areas. Graphic tile ads and "sponsor plaques" in the forums? Yeah, that will probably happen (except in the For Sale / Trade Forum, as I do not wish to distract from free, private sales and trades between members). I'll try to always forbid animated graphics, by the way (I don't know about you, but I'm not crazy about animated graphics, as I find them distracting). This would be acceptable to me because they're not woven through discussions editorially like post-type ads. But, again, I never want this joint to look the least bit like a Usenet newsgroup, with ads strewn about through posts in our main discussion areas. No way.

So what's okay? Joe Lau asking the community what they'd like to see in a new headphone amp. That was pretty cool. He made available modification ideas to the community (for his MG Head amp). What followed was the MG Head OTL. Again, this was a very cool process. tangent or antness discussing changes that DIY'ers want to see in future PCB's. That'd be cool. But the moment any of these cats is announcing a new product for sale, for profit -- that's an ad. And I'm not in the business of paying money out of my pocket for their advertising. Here's a good definition (as I see it anyway): if something could reasonably be construed as an advertisement, it probably is one. Posting teaser photos of a new amp that you also happen to sell for profit? That's an ad. I think the rules state it pretty well:[size=xx-small] Quote:

"Member of the Trade" includes manufacturers, dealers, distributors, manufacturer's representatives, importers, magazine and e-zine writers and others. "General Forums" are those forums within Head-Fi not specifically designated as areas for commercial advertising by Members of the Trade. No Members of the Trade can use his/her business name, postal address, e-mail address, telephone number or URL as part of his/her moniker. All Members of the Trade must contact the forum administrator at jude@head-fi.org to notify him of an interest in posting before making any posts. If a forum member who was not previously a Member of the Trade becomes a Member of the Trade, he must notify the forum administrator of the change in status. After notification of the "Member of the Trade" status, the forum administrator will then add the appropriate tag (Audio Dealer, Manufacturer, Distributor, etc.) to the appropriate profile(s). A Member of the Trade may not volunteer any information about a specific product that he is selling or making, in response to a general request for information about a type of product or in any other discussion in the General Forums. A Member of the Trade may not post announcements, advertisements, sales information or the like about a product he makes or sells in the General Forums. No advertising by Members of the Trade that is not pre-approved by the Head-Fi administrators is allowed in the member forums. Some sponsors have Branded Sponsor Forums in which they will be allowed to advertise their wares. There will also be designated areas and forums where sponsors and non-sponsors alike will be able to advertise their wares. Head-Fi is most definately NOT anti-trade. In fact, trade members are a welcome and vital part of the Head-Fi community. However, Head-Fi's General Forums are not the place for self promotion and advertising of audio products or services. Head-Fi Private Messaging is not to be used for unsolicited advertising. Using Head-Fi Private Messaging for unsolicited advertising will result in at least a temporary ban of the sender from Head-Fi. Head-Fi's e-mail relay feature is not to be used for unsolicited advertising. Using Head-Fi's e-mail relay feature for unsolicited advertising will result in at least a temporary ban of the sender from Head-Fi.

[/size]
If you're not sure if what you want to post is an ad, PM or e-mail a moderator to ask.

If you want to profit from the members of Head-Fi, support Head-Fi. It's that simple. Without commercial support, it wouldn't last long. I'm willing to financially cover what I'm personally covering now for an extended period of time, but not forever (hell, you don't think *I* want to buy new gear too?). But I certainly would not be willing to personally pay for the total costs of this site with no help. That would just be too expensive.

So, again, if you want to profit from the members of Head-Fi, support Head-Fi.

 

[Tim D]

I think the big problem is, lets face it, people love to see new things. We all like seeing pictures of headphone gear. Everyone is going to like looking at the shiny new stuff coming from any manufacturer. But a picture is worth a thousand words, and words are exactly what determines the cost of mall-fi ads if your intent is to advertise. And even if your original intent was not to advertise and just wanted to show something off, it shouldn't be allowed knowing it will eventually transform or snowball into commercial interest.

Basically if you are posting a picture that can be construed as advertisement for your own commercial interests...don't!

Quote:

Meier did a great example earlier of what I think is just on the border of advertisement in the amp forum when he posted pics of his new corda amps. He posted only pictures - specs very provided only when asked for.

Flasken you said it yourself, it is on the border of advertisement...we are just doing some border patrol. Unfortunately the Fixup post did contain some legitmate reviews and impressions from users(including mine!), however the thread is locked not deleted, and there is nothing wrong with any future user reviews and Fixup's amp no doubt already gets its fair share of exposure from word of mouth and don't really expect that to change.

Basically, if Senn comes out with some glorious pic of the HD700, a Senn fan needs to post it for it to stay on general forums, not a Senn rep.

 

[Flasken]

Thanks jude, that made things a lot clearer.

Let me just add that when someone posts in Mall-Fi, I actually sort of feel important or appreciated. The advertisers actively show that they are interesting in spending money to get MY attention. In that way, a simple advertisement in Mall-Fi has a much greater effect than a bunch of (impressive) pics in one of the general forums.

On the other hand, when someone does the opposite (posts an OBVIOUS ad in the general forums), i can get really pissed off. To me, it's a sign of disrespect and lack of appreciation of our community.

Why don't advertisers realize this?? Why don't they realize how big an effect it will have if they spend money on head-fi??

Imagine this for a thread title in members lounge:

"Headroom donates 1000$ to head-fi admin, jude"

Something like that would definitely get alot of people to buy stuff from headroom, just to show their gratitude!!!

Borderline. People like feeling important and appreciated. But they don't like feeling used and worthless.

 

[jude]

[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally posted by Flasken ....Imagine this for a thread title in members lounge: "Headroom donates 1000$ to head-fi admin, jude"....

[/size]

I know you were just using this as an example, Flasken, but I don't want to accept any donations, per se. I always want there to be a clear value exchange (ad space, sponsor plaque, etc.). Audio Asylum solicits its members and sponsors for donations, and for donated gear to auction, etc. I think that's very cool, and I can understand why they do it. However, I would personally like to avoid doing those sorts of things if at all possible.

 

[kelly]

This is a difficult problem and I don't at all envy any of the moderators for having to figure this all out.

Jude, you're right of course when you say that it would be unfair to have some people paying for advertisements and others getting them for free.

You're right, too, when you say that most of us, myself included, don't want the forums to look like usenet where every forum is littered with ads.

Further, I for one don't want Head-Fi to resemble Audio Asylum in that the various manufacturers chime in to toot their own horn and boast products that they themselves profit from.

And, of course, I'm also glad you've previously chosen a policy against sellers using Head-Fi's email and PM functionality to make unsolicited sales. Once on Audio Asylum I posted in a thread about source components (never once mentioning cables) and found an email in my box the next day from a user saying he found a cable he "really likes and I should check out." Con artists.

The trouble is trying to leave in the things we want.

As a user, if I were disallowed from being candid in my advice about products--including pricing, where to purchase, where to find the best price, etc., I'd stop posting my advice to other users. (I bet some folk would see this as a good thing.)

As a reviewer, if I couldn't post information including price and where to purchase, I'd stop posting reviews.

As a reader, I very much like the interaction we currently have with product designers and manufacturers. I like that they've been allowed to answer factual questions about their products in public and are able to discuss design philosophy and user desires in the forum. I know some individual questions could be handled privately, but I take personal interest in discussions surrounding many questions that I myself didn't think to ask. I hope this doesn't go away.

As a reader, I also like to see new product announcements. I know this is a tricky one but my favorite style of this is the way HeadWize does it: Chu posts information in the News section about new and upcoming headphones and headphone related products including basic specs, a picture and a link to more information. I wish we had something similar to that here. I know there is a fine line between news and advertising but I hate to see news sacrificed in the name of blocking free ads.

I know some users have been problematic for the moderators in terms of posting new product information repeatedly. Maybe a more official means of doing this would help close the gap I think we currently have. Think about it, at least.